#3: The CPS Worker & Abuse Prevention (with Alison Sutherland)
Content note: This episode includes discussion of child sexual abuse, incest, sibling-on-sibling sexual abuse, child abuse and neglect, substance abuse, and exposure to firearms in the home. Subscribe on Spotify | View full transcript
What does it actually look like to walk into a house you can't see the floor of—and then do it again the next day? In this episode, Robert sits down with Alison Sutherland for the third conversation in Season One: The Multidisciplinary Team.
Alison has spent over a decade moving through nearly every seat at the MDT table: she began her career investigating child abuse and neglect for the Georgia Department of Family and Children Services (DFCS), then spent several years working under two different juvenile judges, gaining deep familiarity with dependency, delinquency, truancy, and family treatment court. She later became a Crime Victims Coordinator at a Central Texas police department, trained as a forensic interviewer in the ChildFirst Protocol, and worked in education and outreach at a Children's Advocacy Center in Texas. She's also the founder of Prevention Starts with Parents, an organization dedicated to equipping parents to prevent child sexual abuse.
The conversation opens with a courtroom memory that's stuck with Alison since she was 21 — a judge's sentence in an incest case that still gives her chills — before moving into what actually drew her into this work and the moment she realized CPS investigators carry enormous responsibility with almost no real power to control outcomes. Robert and Alison get into some of the more jarring realities of the job: the "dirty house" every investigator remembers, and a home visit involving a registered sex offender, hidden guns, and a houseful of adults smoking meth that taught her a hard lesson about situational awareness — all while carrying none of the protective gear law enforcement gets.
They also dig into why CPS training so often fails to prepare workers for the actual job, why the problems Alison sees in 2026 look almost identical to the problems described in a book written before she was born, and the backyard moment that led her to found Prevention Starts with Parents. The episode closes on minimal facts interviewing, adult narratives that can distort an investigation, and what still gives a longtime CPS worker hope.
Whether you're on an MDT, considering this work, or trying to understand what CPS workers actually carry, this is a candid, occasionally hilarious, always honest look at a role that's too often misunderstood.
About our guest
Alison Sutherland is a child protection professional with a career spanning over a decade across multiple systems serving children and families. She holds a Bachelor's degree in Criminal Justice and was introduced to the field in college while working under a juvenile judge in North Georgia. She began her career with the Georgia Department of Family and Children Services (DFCS), investigating child abuse and neglect, then spent several years working under another juvenile judge, developing expertise in dependency, delinquency, and truancy matters, along with extensive experience in family treatment court. In 2019, Alison became a Crime Victim Coordinator in Texas before transitioning into forensic interviewing using the ChildFirst Protocol. In 2023, she shifted her focus toward prevention education and founded Prevention Starts with Parents, which equips parents with the tools to prevent child sexual abuse. Today, Alison works within the Georgia accountability courts, conducts contract forensic interviews, and serves as a Featured Speaker with Coursing Justice.
Key moments
05:30 — The courtroom sentencing that became a core memory
08:10 — What drew her into child protection work
13:10 — The hardest part of CPS: the limits of your power
21:20 — The "dirty house" story: pot-bellied pigs, Pack 'n Plays, and a career-defining moment
32:40 — Guns, meth, and the situational-awareness lesson that stuck
37:10 — Why CPS training doesn't prepare workers for the job
50:10 — Why the problems of the 1980s look identical to 2026
54:20 — The backyard moment that led to Prevention Starts with Parents
59:40 — Sibling-on-sibling abuse and the limits of "just investigate"
1:07:10 — Minimal facts interviewing, explained
Mentioned in this episode
Prevention Starts with Parents — Alison's organization equipping parents to prevent child sexual abuse
Successful Investigations from the Start: The Art of Minimal Facts Interviews — Alison's Coursing Justice training
Guardians, Gaslighters, or Gullible? Adult Narratives Affecting the Child Abuse Investigation — Alison's Coursing Justice training
Prevent Child Abuse America — the organization behind the college chapter that first exposed Alison to this field
Want to learn more?
Explore Prevention Starts with Parents' free resources, including guides on sextortion prevention and response, and a conversation guide for talking with your child about disclosure.
Browse Alison's full training catalog for more on minimal facts interviewing, navigating adult narratives in an investigation, and CPS/law enforcement collaboration.
Join our free Justice in 30 webinar series.
Invest in a CaseReady MDT training simulation. As Alison and Robert discuss, CPS workers and law enforcement often operate on very different timelines and burdens of proof. Working through a simulated case gives your MDT a change to practice navigating those exact tensions outside the pressure of an active case.
Episode Transcript
*** Please note this transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors.
[00:00:00] Minimal facts is focusing more on just what we need immediately not interfering with what could happen in a forensic interview.
Bad training can absolutely miss opportunities that are the difference, between a child seeing justice and safety the opposite of that.
You just have to think, I'm such a small part of this grander scheme of, people that are doing this work, there is someone just like us, in the next town over, in the next town over. Just trying to work with their community. We have to do it here, you have to do it there, there's, that common goal to work towards.
Welcome to Coursing Justice, the podcast, a program of Coursing Justice LLC. We're a consortium of current and former law enforcement, prosecutors, and CAC or MDT members serving the field through innovative training simulations and practical content for justice and [00:01:00] child protection professionals. I'm your host, Robert Peters, former prosecutor, attorney at law, and founder of Coursing Justice.
We are now on our third episode of Season One: The Multidisciplinary Team, or MDT, and we are continuing to look at what child abuse multidisciplinary MDT professionals do, what they wish others understood about their roles, and where tension may arise related to their responsibilities in the MDT. Our goal here is to maybe help MDT professionals understand each other, work together more effectively, and strengthen our overall response to children and families, and hopefully give the broader public a good window into how difficult and important this work is, but also how incredible the people are that choose to do it day in and day out.
My guest today is Alison Sutherland. Alison is one of our featured speakers at Coursing Justice. There are a variety of terms one could apply to Alison. Unicorn and Swiss Army Knife seem to be favorites here in Coursing [00:02:00] Justice land, and you need look no further than her background to understand that, her skill set as well.
But she has a background in child protective services or CPS, juvenile court, victim advocacy, forensic interviewing. She worked under a juvenile judge in North Georgia. She began her career with the Georgia Department of Family and Children Services, where she investigated cases of child abuse and neglect.
She worked under another juvenile judge, so she's got a lot of insight into dependency, delinquency, and truancy matters. And if that weren't enough, she also became a crime victims coordinator with a Central Texas police department in addition to her work as a forensic interviewer, and she has also worked for a CAC, and she has worked a good bit in prevention education.
So you're starting to get the picture here. Alison brings a lot to the table. Today, just for time purposes, we're going to narrow our discussion a little bit to her CPS work, and we're gonna focus [00:03:00] on some of Alison's core memories from her CPS work, her work in abuse prevention. We're going to think a little bit about the importance of situational awareness with maybe some memorable examples that involve meth pipes and firearms.
It's perhaps less surprising to those of you in the MDT world, maybe a little more jarring, to those of you in the general public. We'll talk through the basics of minimal facts interviews, as well as some other Coursing Justice training topics that Alison has cooked up. Why the problems of the 1980s are very similar to the problems of 2026 and what we can do about it.
Let's step into our conversation with Alison
Welcome, Alison Sutherland, to the Coursing Justice podcast. Alison is, one of the incredible individuals, that I brought into the Coursing Justice realm. And you, Alison, are actually the first to be on Coursing Justice, the podcast. So thank you- Aw ... for responding to my texts faster than our other- ... esteemed colleagues. [00:04:00] Gotta get in there. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Well, would like to start just with a few questions that are non-work-related to introduce you a bit to our audience.
First of all, any hobbies of note? Okay. Well, the answer is no for short answer. But I think that this really is a hobby. I find this very fun to be in this world of prevention and direct services. But basically, like if, if anyone's familiar with Secret Santa, which hopefully you are you have to go through what do you like, what do you not like, hobbies so that your Secret Santa can know more about you, and easily I put preventing child abuse as my favorite hobby.
So- ... that's my that's my Jesus Sunday school answer. There you go. It was actually... Have you heard the, ever heard the phrase, phrase Jesus juke? I haven't. It's a thing. It's the... I think it's most applied to the scenario where you have [00:05:00] some random anecdote or story and then there's like a hard pivot, typically by a youth leader, like a hard pivot to some specific Bible lesson.
Well, there you go. Exactly. Yeah. There you go. That's my juke. Well, excellent juke. Football is not one of my hobbies, so we'll throw that out there. Same. Same. Yes. Yeah. I was more, more productive on the academic side, tragically. Yeah. Well, you have a, a varied background that we'll get into in just a moment.
Just before we hit record, I think I called you a Swiss Army knife, which I think is a compliment. It's intended as a compliment. But as- Thank you for the clarifying, yeah ... as part of your varied experiences- Mm ... you've spent some time in the courtroom, and as we know, courtrooms are interesting places.
Any memories jumping out to you from those times? Yeah, so it's definitely cooler to talk about things that I saw in the courtroom that I did not do, 'cause I was... Yeah, nothing noteworthy for me necessarily. But very distinct [00:06:00] memory with, there was a really bad child sexual abuse case.
It was like incest-related, and it was a successful case because after the trial was done, it was the father that was the perpetrator, and he was like, I mean, last breath in the courtroom was him still saying "I did not do this," even though it was very clear that that had happened.
And the judge, Judge Miller, shout out to Judge Miller of the Enotah Judicial Circuit, it was like so quiet in the courtroom, and we're just waiting for him to talk, and he was like giving his sentence for the dad, and he was like, "I don't have control over what happens to you after you die, but I have control over what happens to you when you live, and you will never, ever see a day outside of prison for the rest of your life."
Beautiful. And you're just trying to hold back the clouts and the tears like in the courtroom. But it [00:07:00] was, I was probably 21 at the time, and it was just, like it's a core memory for sure, just to be like this matters, and there's people that feel as strongly you know, as we do about this work. So yeah, great moment.
That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, you don't always get justice in these cases, unfortunately, but when you do, man, what a feeling. What a feeling. Yeah, super powerful. Yeah. I'll never forget it. Yep. So you were there... Were you there during the pause while you're waiting for the jury to give a verdict?
No, so this was one where it was the sentencing was separate, and so we had all come back and were, yeah, waiting to see what the judge had decided. So- Nice ... he was very sure of what he decided. Nice. Yeah. That's always... I- it would be applicable, I think, still to, to your scenario where you don't quite yet know the outcome.[00:08:00]
But I remember in prosecution, it, it was the, both the best and worst feeling, that, that moment. Like, everything that's been done has been done, and you're just waiting to see the outcome of it, and it's just this really sick- Yeah ... sick feeling, but also, like, just pure adrenaline as well. Like, which way does this go?
Is this- Mm-hmm ... incredible and triumph and justice and amazing or is this just crushing and horrible and awful? And- Yeah ... and there's no in between- Yeah ... most of the time. There literally isn't, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff. Well, what initially drew you into this work? What initially drew me is probably the fact that I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and when I- That helps
ended up, yeah, ended up in college. And so, sort of trying to figure out what I was even interested in I joined our Prevent Child Abuse club on my college campus. So it was just one of the university [00:09:00] chapters of the greater Prevent Child Abuse America kinda thing. And it sort of just exposed me more to the, the way that our families lived, like in the community that was in.
I think it was very easy to be at a university and have like tunnel vision of just like college and I'm just trying to get my degree, and it's very, like, me, me, me during that- Right ... season of life. Yep. And so I was able to it was a very rural area where I went to school. A lot, a lot of poverty.
A lot of the families lived under the poverty line. And so we worked with what... Georgia has something called Family Connection, and the public schools have this... It's a, it's just a resource for, for families. And so we partnered with them, and I got to just be exposed to, like, what did these children and families need in my community.
And then getting to do some internships with the, the criminal justice [00:10:00] system when I was in school, just realizing, there's no way I could do anything else. Once you get exposed to it, it's like you can't look away. And then slowly started to realize what I would actually be interested in, in doing.
And I just, I had a lot of support from people that were already doing the work. And so it just... it was kinda like a progression of, like, slowly being exposed to the reality of, like, how people live and, and what kids go through and families that are trying to both prevent something from happening, but also families that those, those kids deserve safety.
So that was kind of the, the sort of slow progression to, to what got me into the work. Awesome. Yeah, it, once you're hooked, you're hooked, for sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've got as, as we've mentioned a few times, a breadth of background, but for today's purposes I wanna focus mostly on your CPS background.
And was it called CPS where you were at? Or I know [00:11:00] the acronyms are all over the place these days. Yes, it's different. I use CPS just because that's probably the, the most understood, term. Right. But we're, we were or are DFCS in Georgia, which is the Department of Family and Children Services, so.
But yes, overall Child Protective Services. Nice. Yeah, we were DHHR when I was a prosecutor in, in West Virginia, and we've gone through a few different permutations, for sure. Yeah. Well, what walk us through how'd you get the role at CPS, and what was just the initial... I would think it'd be kind of shocking, but what was your-
experience initially stepping into that work? Oh, that actually just reminded me of one of, like, the first houses I ever visited. Yeah. So I, I was actually the, the university... I went to the University of North Georgia. That's where I graduated from, and they have a really amazing criminal justice program that's even developed since I've been there.
[00:12:00] But one of the requirements before you graduated was a 40 credit hour internship. So basically, your last semester you're out in the field. You need to understand what it's gonna be like when you graduate. And I was at my local district attorney's office but realized, like, there was only gonna be part-time work that came after graduation.
And so I was like, "We're gonna be on. We need full-time work," post-graduation. And so one of my old internship supervisors, she was just like D- DFCS is always hiring." And I was like, "Oh, cool. That's, that's great." And so there was an investigator position, and that was interesting to me just because it seemed a little more fast-paced.
I'm on a mission to save the world 'cause I'm 21, and just ready to get into the field. So I switched my internship to my local DFCS office and essentially started [00:13:00] interning which then transitioned into, like, that full-time investigator position once I graduated. I literally left my internship and, like, went to my graduation.
So then the next day I'm, like, ready to go. So it was, yeah, fast-paced for sure, but- That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. They are always happy to hire for a variety- I know. Yeah ... of tragic and important reasons, yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, if you were speaking, Obv- our primary audience is multidisciplinary team members but shifting a bit, to those who are assessing, just ways to positively impact the world, what would you say are some of the pros and cons for, from your experiences in CPS about that role?
I think the first thing is to realize you really don't have control over some of the things that are gonna happen. Especially when you are working with parties both the children and the parents [00:14:00] or the caregiver, whoever that might be. And then you might add in extended family, 'cause maybe extended family comes into the picture.
So it's just realizing you, you can have that passion and try to meet people where they're at and be a parent's cheerleader, especially when it comes to things like substance abuse, which is probably the most Common thing you're gonna face with Child Protective Services for the most part is a lot of parental substance abuse and mental health issues.
But just sort of realizing you do keep that passion, but like, there's just no way you're gonna be able to make those long-lasting changes, especially when you're an investigator and you've got 30 days to work your case and make a decision. And, and then you pass it along. So I think it... I just, I had a picture in my head of, like, I'm gonna s- save all these kids and all these parents are just like, they, they need help.
Please do have that passion 'cause if you [00:15:00] don't don't do that job. Mm. Find something else to do.
Yes. Because you're gonna have to show a lot of compassion. But also still have the understanding you, you cannot make decisions for the people that you work with. Mm. So you might then be having to make decisions for a, a child that you'll have to put in a lot of hours to, to make sure kids are safe.
Yeah. If that answers your question. It does. That's one of the harder elements that, that I think crosses several MDT roles is the, the limitations of your power, like, the limitations of your ability to either stop bad things from happening or, or causing important things to happen. And even- Mm ... working in one of the more powerful roles theoretically within the MDT, that was true in my experience as well.
Just the things, those limits are brutal, man. They're tough- Mm ... when you run into it, and there, there are some things you just can't change. Mm-hmm ... it's, it's frustrating. Yeah. It [00:16:00] is. But that's also why it's like if we're talking in the sense of MDT you have to like your MDT, enjoy working with your MDT because if you...
A healthy MDT is you stay in your lane and you know that you know what your role is in the MDT, and then feel like you can lean on w- what these other members are supposed to do. And I think that even goes into I don't know if other MDT members feel like this specifically, probably CPS and investigators, but if you're a CPS worker, you don't have to rely on the decision always that the investigator makes because we're working with different burdens of proof.
Okay, just because a criminal case maybe doesn't keep going you are a different organization and you're focused on child safety and whatever their home dynamics are. And so I think I've seen where CPS is just waiting to see what law enforcement does, and then it's like, "Okay, well, then we're gonna make our decision."
And it's like you have a [00:17:00] different role. You have a different burden of, of proof that you're looking at. And your role is that safety and, what is what is gonna happen down the road and trying to s- to see if the kid can stay in the house or not. So, I just... i've seen where it's like they make their decisions together.
And just because a criminal case can't move forward doesn't mean that a CPS case would be exactly the same. 100%. I don't know if you've seen that before. I have, yeah. And I, and I've seen the opposite of, of the example you j- just gave, which I'm very amused by. I'll get to in it's, in just a second.
And I think that, that's so important 'cause it's... Yeah, it, there's a healthy element of, of that cross-discipline communication, of course. That's critical in terms of, I, I've seen instances where there wasn't communication CPS to law enforcement, and now serious suspect's spooked, lost the element of surprise.
Would've been great to get a nice, good law enforcement interrogation, but as you [00:18:00] just mentioned, your clock at CPS is, operating on nanoseconds, and the law enforcement- Mm-hmm ... clock is six months, three months, whatever it is. Yeah. So you're just different timetables. So there's a, it, it certainly can go the other way as well.
But yeah, I, I completely agree. And it, it takes some critical thinking. I think some of the best CPS workers I worked with just had a great common sense. And there's just so, so many important elements to that. The case I was thinking of w- that was sort of the inverse e- example of what you just mentioned is I had a case where we actually lost it- On the CPS side.
So in West Virginia and I've learned since then that we're somewhat unique. I don't know how it was in Georgia, but the way it's structured in West Virginia, the prosecutor's essentially the attorney for the department that houses CPS. And so- Okay ... we would be representing the CPS on their child protection petitions when there's a removal or an adjudication adjustment of parental rights or termination- Mm-hmm
whatever the case may be. And so we would have that role, but then we would [00:19:00] also have the role of prosecuting the felonies. And so particularly in small rural jurisdictions, I worked in one office where this was split and, and never the twain shall meet, and there, there was a pretty clean line between who was working the civil and who was working the criminal, and there really was even kind of limited communication intentionally just the way that was structured.
But in the other county I worked in, that was not the case, and I just could do both of them, and that was awesome. 'Cause it gave you just the, the logistical strategic options that you had. It worked fantastic. Yeah. So I, I straight up lost it on the civil side. I think we got, like, a narrow adjudication, not on the main thing.
It was this, it was an egregious egregious act of physical abuse. I won't go into the gory details, but I mean, you're, you're talking grievous injury to a toddler. And the judge- Mm ... in that case was kind of unconvinced which was ridiculous 'cause we had wonderful expert testimony.
Anyway, I won't turn this into a therapy session. Sure. Yes. But was kind of unconvinced and in... So we, we [00:20:00] kind of sort of lost on the civil side. So then I turned around and indicted on the criminal side, and then won- Mm-hmm ... beyond a reasonable doubt on the criminal side- Yeah, that's great ... at the higher burden of proof.
So that goes to prove the point you just did, is that they are different burdens of proof. They're different expectations. That was sort of an odd case where, I think just because of some flawed analysis, it, it turned out a different way than ideally it would have. But they- Well, and if you're-
they're different systems and have to be viewed differently. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause you're thinking, "Okay, well, who's my audience? Who am I trying to prove this to?" And if you're CPS, it's your judge. You have your juvenile judge that will typically, like- Yeah ... that you're looking to convince. And then, for you it's a jury most likely that- Right
And, and it's like- w- how could one be tougher than the other sometimes? 'Cause you'd think, "Oh, it's just one person," and, they do this all the time so it should be easy. But you know- Not always ... it really... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it can really depend. Sometimes they get jaded, like when you've seen a certain amount of things.
[00:21:00] Yeah. That may have been the case with that one. But in any event. Hmm. Well, what going, going back to your initial entry in CPS, was there a moment that jumps out to you early on where you're just, "Whoa," "What, what is this?" "What is this career? What have I done?" Or not so much? Yeah. I think, I think a lot of investigators would probably relate with, like, the dirty house moment.
Oh, yes. Like everyone has their dirty house. And I'm not saying, like mine is the dirtiest, but probably. It was- If it were a competition, you'd win. It would, yeah. No the year was 2016, and yeah, it was like I'd probably been... I think I was just interning and I'd probably been there a week.
And we get a call. I actually don't... It might have been from Animal Services. Why am I blanking? Is that what it's called? Like with the county- Could be ... or city? Animal Control? Animal Control, yeah. There we go. We got, that was [00:22:00] probably the only CPS case I've ever gotten that report from Animal Control.
But he was just like, "I'm at this house and there is, like, 14 dogs and a pot-bellied pig and some other animals around the home in this neighborhood." And he was like I can hear kids inside. It just is kinda like a dumpster fire." And we get out there and the, the dogs weren't ever let outside.
Hmm. And so, you can't see the floor- Yeah ... 'cause it is just cover- I'm talking covered in feces. And then- Nice ... you've got a pot, you've got a pot-bellied pig. I'm talking like, like 400 pounds or whatever. And that lived on the family's back porch that did not go to the ground. So- Oh, no ... i'm talking, like, a little, what, like five by five wooden- Oh, [00:23:00] no
Kinda thing. And then then you've got the three kids that were all under- Four. Mm. And they kept them, the three of them in one Pack 'N Play. Mm. But they were let out of the Pack 'N Play, and one was crawling. Mm ... and yeah, so it was just to be like, like you have to cope with stuff like that to be like, "Oh, it's funny, there was like a pig living there."
And all the little dogs and stuff. Obviously it was like really traumatic. But just m- I mean, realizing like is this, is this what it's actually like to do this job? And try to like work with these families. Like, clearly there was like mental health issues going on Mm-hmm ... and some, some substance abuse.
And that was literally like week one or two, and just trying to be like, "Am I gonna do this or not?" kinda thing. [00:24:00] And I mean, stuck with it for a little bit, but that was... Like, I can still smell. Like, as- Mm ... we're talking about it I'm like, I smell the house. Mm. Like, I can still smell it. Another core memory.
So. Yeah. A very... Yes, that is burned into there, so yeah. But- You know a friend, Do you know Victor Vieth? Well, I kn- he doesn't know me, but I know him. Yes. Yes. Every- everybody likely knows, knows Victor at this point it seems. Yeah. He, he's used the term shadow children. And so you have, the... you know this.
So often these houses, sometimes they're in the middle of nowhere and away from civilization. But a lot of times- Mm-hmm ... they're kind of like right in the mix and you just miss it, and it's places you've driven by before and hadn't given- Mm-hmm ... a second thought, and then you step into that and realize it's this whole other world that exists, that, that just wasn't on your radar.
So. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you spent a good bit of time in [00:25:00] CPS. And, but you also spent a good bit of time in sort of a court context. What were your roles in court? So if listeners are familiar with family treatment court or family drug court it's called different things in different states.
But basically what that is, is when there is a dependency case in with juvenile court and you've got a parent, There is a process to be eligible for the court. So obviously you have to have a child that would be dependent, whether they're in foster care or at risk of going into foster care.
And it's related to the parent or parents' substance abuse. So there's CPS involvement. Maybe a referral comes from like probation or something like that. And it's a 18 month to two year court program. So it's like a, it's [00:26:00] a- trauma-informed approach to working with parents to, like, reunify these families.
So they may or may not have criminal charges. They're not- usually drug court is, like, they've got a possession charge. So they could be eligible with or without that. Really, it's that dependency that we're looking for. And so with family treatment court, you're in court once a week. And you're looking at the progress of these parents that they're, doing parenting classes.
They're in AA. They're having to do individual and, group therapy kinda stuff. Obviously staying clean. And we, we call it the team, but it's kinda like your own MDT for drug court. And so these different parties come together and, look at this progress and just try to keep these parents on the right track.
So, for the CPS listeners, like, [00:27:00] it's basically a case plan, but the case plan is embedded into this family treatment court. So, it's a great option for CPS workers to not have to be, like, hounding their parents that are struggling with that. And, they're accountable to the court when it comes to their progress.
So, I love that, and I was in court, like, all the t- you know, weekly for all the shenanigans to see what these parents were doing, so yeah. Shenanigans is a good word for courtroom experiences. Yes. I do miss, I do miss it I miss it greatly. Good times. Yeah. You also came across a role at a law enforcement agency.
Tell us about that. Yeah. It's funny, if you asked my sergeant that he interviewed me, he would tell you my interview was so bad. And I know that it was. Like- ... it was a really bad interview. But at the time I had moved to a new state, so I'd moved [00:28:00] to Texas at that point, and every state it's just different.
So, leg- legislation and what are crimes even, called. And just the, the process and, the people you're working with. So, I had done some research before my interview, and this is gonna sound so nerdy. But they asked me a question at the end of the interview that was like, "If you were in this situation what would you do?"
And I was like, "Can I pull out my notes?" Because I had the answer written down somewhere. And that for some reason that convinced them, even though I had just I had destroyed myself probably in that interview. But that was kind of the moment that they were like, "All right, maybe she's willing to kind of work and research and see how to make the program better."
That was a great job because I got to work with all victims of violent and sexual crimes and in a bigger city than I was used to. And [00:29:00] so getting the perspective of as a victims advocate working with law enforcement, and it just taught me a lot because it's not like you can just wave a wand and be like, "We help victims with everything that they want."
Know, there's definitely limitations and still g- you know, going back to you can still do your job as an advocate even if, maybe charges don't come. So I loved... That was, like, a dream job of mine and I'm so thankful I got to do that. It was the best. It was so much fun.
That's awesome. Yeah. And then these days you wear a few hats but one of them is with a CAC. Can you tell us about that? Yeah. So currently doing education and outreach at my local CAC, which I think it's called different stuff, just like training coordinator or prevention educator
but yeah, try to focus on building relationships with the community, a lot of focus on [00:30:00] prevention and, you , we wanna teach kids, we wanna teach adults and talk about child sexual abuse. So yeah, this is... I- it's just different every day. You just come in- Yes ... and see what's waiting, so yeah.
I love that- Yeah ... that usage of CACs when there's more of that proactive element to, to CACs. And obviously a huge, huge believer dating back to prosecution in the CAC model how critical that is for positive outcomes for kids, but I think also for communities. It really should be- Mm-hmm ... that hub.
And I love when CACs embrace that role. Well, as promised, we were gonna focus more on your, your CPS chops CPS workers are, are maybe the most prolific discipline at Coursing Justice trainings, which is super cool. Great ... and we're very humbled and honored by given, how much we know that CPS workers are, are tasked with doing on just a daily basis, so obviously just a- Mm-hmm
huge privilege. Good bit of law- I'd say I think law enforcement is probably our second most [00:31:00] common discipline in our trainings. But on the, on the CPS front could you talk specifically to that part of our audience, any practical pointers as you look back just in hindsight, on your time in CPS, what are, what are some practical pointers you would have?
Hmm. I guess if I'm thinking about my experience is, it, well, this is a great opportunity, but take advice. Mm-hmm. There, there's so many things specifically with CPS investigators that you have to do, and you have these deadlines that you're supposed to meet and, it's you're supposed to make a decision about if something happened or not within that, 30 days.
Maybe you've got 45 days. You've got 24 hours to respond and find a kid. Just trying to know that there's always something that you can learn from whether it's a different CPS worker or an MDT member. And also just it's okay to lean on them if y- if you do trust [00:32:00] them. 'Cause I even think about I got close with our probation office, which not necessarily a random relationship for the two organizations to have, but I mean, consider how many parents you're working with that are on probation and how those situations could become not great.
Yeah ... but okay, here's a rabbit trail. Do it ... so the I get a report that was, I think that the concern was there was a, a dad, a father of, a, say, 19-year-old daughter, and the 19-year-old daughter had had a baby father was a registered sex offender, and they were all living in the home.
And so the concern was, is this baby safe? He's a registered sex offender, he's on probation, this and that. And so luckily I'd already developed this relationship with the supervisor, and I was [00:33:00] like, "Hey, can you come with me to do this initial, trying, I'm making, reasonable effort to find this baby?"
Obviously not to interview the kid, but, see what the heck was going on. And they were like, "Yeah, let's- let's go out 'cause we haven't..." I d- I don't know if they hadn't, seen him in a while or something like that, so they were like, "Yeah, let's- let's go out to the house." Well, we get out there, and again, this is, rural north Georgia, so just if anyone can relate to that.
But we'd, we get up to the house and, no one's coming to the door, but it's very clear there's, multiple people in the house, which is always, red flag. Somebody please come to the door. This is not gonna go well. And I think some, some other POs had come thankfully and one of them's like, "Well, I'll go, I'll go check the front door," 'cause the way it was set up was you kind of really come to the back door.
And they g- they make it out to the front door, and they're like, "Gun." They're [00:34:00] yelling, "Gun." And we're like, oh my gosh, so he's yelling. He's like, "Get behind the car, get behind the car." Well, thankfully there was just this was dumb, but there was just a massive shotgun just laid out on the the front porch.
So nobody was pointing it, but still, like, another red flag. And if you're on probation, just a reminder, you can't have weapons. It's not recommended to the- And s- ... to the extensive probationer audience of Courting Justice, please don't have firearms. Who will be listening to this, yes. Okay, so we're already in like, war mode at this point, and we've got one of the guys was on his car using the, the speaker.
"Whoever is inside the house, come out now." It just went from zero to 100. Amazing. And so, yeah, it was, it was intense. And then finally they let us inside the house, and we were just like, "Hey, that was super weird, like, you wouldn't come to the door and, and come talk to us." Baby wasn't there, but I was okay, well, if the baby's living here, I have to see what's [00:35:00] going on in the house and, check the rooms.
, You just gotta assess the whole house. Well, I like bebop upstairs not even thinking about it, and a PO is, behind me, and I'm just, I'm getting, a tour through the house by the, the father. And he just, brings me up the stairs and, keeps me trying to go back farther upstairs.
And then I hear the PO behind me, and he was like, "Get out from under there." And I'm just like- ... "Oh my gosh," like, "this is going so bad." So there's like two adults. Ev- all the adults in the house had ... We pulled up on them basically, like, smoking meth, of course. Great timing. Of course. And so there's more adults hiding upstairs, and my lack of situational awareness-
and I am just like, "I need to go home," like, "I just need to go home," "This is not going well." And it didn't really get worse after that, but it ... And they were just like, "We didn't know that you guys were here," which is hilarious. But I think that would be another piece of advice, [00:36:00] thinking about that case, is I was so naive back then just being like, "Everything's like, all be fine," and the situational awareness component was just a missing piece for me.
And just being like giving people the benefit of the doubt, I think. Of course I should have thought people were hiding in the house. That was, why did I not think that? So another piece of advice is just, don't be an idiot, kind of- ... going into these houses. Don't miss the smoking guns and also don't miss the smoking m- meth pipes, right?
I'm not gonna assume what they were using, but- Very responsible, yeah ... something like that, yes, yes. Well, it, it is remarkable just the, the expectations on social workers. Someone has said this. Maybe it was you. It's certainly the case that social workers are expected to go into the same areas as law enforcement, but- Yes
minus the gun, minus body armor, minus backup a lot of the time. And it is- Yeah ... that, I think [00:37:00] that makes what you just said so much more important, that, that situational awareness and, yeah, go home. Go home at the end of the shift, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Well, let's talk about some of the limitations of the role.
You've talked in the past about just some of the limitations in terms of the resources you're given as a CPS worker or the, or the training. Can you speak to those? Yeah. Well, and I can speak to how it was at least for the state of Georgia, but you have two like separate trainings that you go to when you're starting for investigators, and it was like, I can't remember what the first one is called, and then the second one is Track.
So I think the first one you go to is just like general DFCS stuff, like for anyone that's gonna work for DFCS, and then Track was specific to investigations. And when I look back at that training, like it was so bad. Like I- you're watching videos that are from like the 1800s about what child abuse [00:38:00] is like things that people would probably already know and really not what you're faced with as a CPS worker.
So they're showing you cases of like severe physical abuse or these really like big things that you're not always seeing. Like when you go visit a house and you're trying to work your investigation, like things are typically really subtle, or their parents are manipulating the situation, or you've got family members that are manipulative, or kids that aren't talking about what's going on.
And you're not taught really how to address that. And so these, these reports that you get you're not really trained this idea of there could be other stuff going on that's not reported. Or I probably didn't hear the word polyvictimization until I was out of the CPS world, and things like that.
Wow. And yeah, I just feel like the, the standard training that you get [00:39:00] doesn't really prepare you to do your job. I think it teaches you how to follow policy and like- Mm ... check boxes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. There's so many, so many tempting rabbit trails to go down there. Yeah. That was did you, did you run into this tension as a CPS worker? I've saw it on the prosecution side, but where it, it felt like there was a tension between, say, CPS policy and the law, or is that not really something you encountered? Yeah. Okay, so I won't take this necessarily as a rabbit trail, but one example could be when that year that I started working, which was 2016, our child abuse registry rolled out, which it, they then pulled back and I don't think it exists anymore.
But the Child Protective Services trying to interact sometimes with the law it created, a lot of [00:40:00] difficulty, I think. And I under- I understand why there's policy in place so that you don't have cases just, sitting there forever and, kids- Right ... are then just perpetually at risk. Yeah.
But I also think, like, that should not be the driving force of what CPS does is just, like, policy. And again, going back to, this bur- this idea of, a burden of proof is, you have the lowest, I think it's preponderance of the evidence basically is... CPS. So you know I don't know if that's really answering your question, but you're probably thinking of something specific.
Well, it is that exact tension where sometimes either in a MDT context or maybe in a courtroom, there might be a question of why X, Y, and Z was done or not done, and sort of the refrain, is, "Well, it's policy to do it that way." And I've seen judges get quite irate at that answer depending on the, on the circumstances.
One thing that I've, I had a tremendous amount of empathy towards, maybe I didn't show it, [00:41:00] but it was inside is the position that CPS workers are put in, in, in the courtroom in particular is really deeply unfair so much of the time, just in terms of the timelines that you have, to investigate these cases the amount of resources you have to investigate them.
And then just the, yeah, the caseload, and then simultaneously the scrutiny by the judicial system, sometimes by MDT partners, et cetera. Not always done in a very charitable way, shall we say. Mm. Is that something you ran into? Yeah. I think that I had some pretty good support from supervisors.
Awesome. I will say some of the supervisors had been there, a long time, and actually, were very good resources, I think, for, especially for me as, someone that was new. And I'd say working with the investigators were, it was a healthy relationship. For me, I [00:42:00] also was roommates with our forensic interviewer at the time.
No way. So that was probably, never a conflict, but, it was just like, that was really helpful 'cause I could, we could literally go and, do case review, at night after, something after a case had happened and stuff. But so I guess I might have a limited perspective on my specific experience of, I
Feel like I was supported by that MDT that we had. Awesome. Yeah, I would say so. That's awesome. Yeah. What what would be helpful for other MDT members to understand about the the CPS role?
Maybe something that would be helpful is for other MDT members to understand how an investigation can go. Hmm. And, the, I guess the different outcomes and the language I might use could be different state to state, but we have an option for family preservation which is just what it [00:43:00] sounds like to, to close the investigation.
Foster care, but foster care means that a judge is signing an order. So you as a CPS worker can never, ever take a child into foster care. Without that, unless there is, I mean, a immediate exigent circumstances, which we're not even, like, bringing them into foster care. I'm using hand quotes, finger quotes.
But it's the same way, law enforcement would be like, "I am in charge of this child's immediate safety." But you still have to get a judge to sign an order to bring a kid into care. And so some MDT members may not understand maybe those processes for CPS workers with the decision-making process.
And typically your investigator you're working with may not be making that call. It may be a supervisor. It may be the, county director that's involved with those possible removals. And also the pressure that's put on them to find, like, a safe place for a kid. Mm-hmm. You can't just snap your fingers [00:44:00] and be like, "Here is their new indefinite home that is not disrupting anybody's life."
If you're going to aunt or uncle or cousin or whatever it is. There's a lot of work that goes into obviously finding possibly, new safe place, or there should be that new safe place for a child or children to go. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Are there any aspects of CPS work that you've seen be misunderstood either by MDT members or by the broader public?
Have you ever like- You have a knowing smile ... this, it's just because I think there, I've heard people think that CPS workers get more money the more kids they bring into foster care. I've heard that as well. And you'll see that- Yeah ... on social media as well. That's a pr- Yeah ... something that proliferates.
Yeah. Oh, so-and-so- Yeah ... got a bonus 'cause they removed. Yeah. That's, are you telling me that's not how it works? Well, it's true. It's true. Yeah. No, it's [00:45:00] definitely, yes. I, that was my most lucrative job I've had. Just kidding. Yeah, that would, I mean, that's probably like a myth I guess. But yeah, it's, I don't know.
I think, I think maybe it's, CPS workers, especially when we're just talking investigators, your main role is safety. You've, especially you've got these timelines that you have to meet, it's like this immediate safety of a child, and is this person that the kid is with fit to take care of them even for another day?
So, because you've got these, response times once you get a report. And I don't know. I've seen CPS depicted on, Law & Order or,, certain shows like that, and it's probably realistic. But it's, there's certain things that you can and can't do. So yeah. You mentioned a wand earlier, so let's, let's bring the wand back.
If you could wave that wand at the world of CPS- Oh ... loaded question what would you change about the [00:46:00] world of CPS?
I think This discussion about resources. And when I say resources, I mean everything from training to people to, shift work. I mean, it, the, I think the pressure that's put on, on workers that are you're understaffed, you are not well-rounded enough to really do that job unless you stay for a long time, or maybe you've done previous work and then you're a CPS worker.
But I will say for instance, I, I'm gonna throw this training under the bus. I'm so sorry if someone's listening and they're like, "I, [00:47:00] I teach that," or, "I love that." No, that's awesome. But I, I had to take- Best training ever. I know it's not yours, so it's fine, but- All right. They all suck ... it was like, it was called, like, Verbal Judo, and it was- Mm-hmm
the stupidest class. It was, first of all, it was two days, and literally, I'll never forget, I had to, I had to do, like where you practice it, like role play, and it, they were teaching you this, like, 30-second script of what to do when you, when a parent, like, answers the door. And I was like, "I've had parents answer the door naked.
I'm not gonna stand there for 30 seconds talking about, like, 'Hello, my name is Alison Sutherland, and I am with the department...'" It was like the stupidest thing I've ever done. But that was what I had to spend two days learning, whenever really I needed to understand, like, what does it actually look like for someone to be under the influence?
Or how do I know if how do I [00:48:00] interview a kid? How do I... Like, all these things that really are way more applicable than Verbal Judo. So just gonna th- It don't sound as cool as- ... throw it under the bus ... Verbal Judo, though, so. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was a waste of time. Maybe that's, maybe that's the problem.
We need cooler names. Maybe that's the issue. Cooler names, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A big emphasis that we have at Coursing Justice is experiential training, so where we're simulating crime scene response, forensic interviews, suspect interrogations crime scene analysis, evidence acquisition, all that good stuff.
So very, very well received in terms of training matters a lot, man. Training, training just matters a ton, and I've- Yeah ... I've seen what happens when the training is bad. Bad training can absolutely get people killed and it can absolutely miss opportunities that are the difference, between a child seeing justice and safety the opposite of that. And so yeah, no, it's, it really does matter a lot, and it's... Oh, man, when we [00:49:00] pause record, remind me to rant about some things in a, in that vein. Okay. 'Cause it i- it's so, so important, and yeah, it- It is. I've, I've got a lot of frustration of a lot of what passes for training, unfortunately not really being oriented to what folks need.
And also, you know- Mm ... we'll just keep ranting for a second. No one has any time, right? You have no time. So- Yeah ... the am- the amount of training that's not sort of practical and, a- again, we're increasingly more, more hammering the drum of experiential simulation-based type training. That's not the only effective training of course, but it's one we're particularly passionate about because it is very much, practice like you play, work on developing applicable skills, and learn- Mm
in ways that aren't, learning by screwing up, which is how many of us learned. So fully agree. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. Well, in, in addition to all of your background that we've discussed to this point well, hang on, before I do that transition, future Robert can edit this part out. [00:50:00] Before, before I do that in terms of the broader CPS stuff I was reading a book, I, I forget the name of it but it was about the foster care crisis, and it was talking about, low salaries, poor resources, poor training, high turnover rising caseloads, if I didn't say that already.
Yeah ... and this book was written before I was born. Wow. And it's all, it's still here. All those things are still applicable, to probably- Mm-hmm ... most states in the union, as it were. And so it feels like we're still riding the crazy train on all of that, and there hasn't been, like, a systemic shift.
And so I don't know. I don't expect anyone to have the answer to it, 'cause I'm sure the answer is very systemic and multifaceted. But I don't know. Do you have any sense of why this has been so intractable? Like, why, why are the problems of the early 1980s identical in some form or fashion to the problems of [00:51:00] 2026?
Do you have any brilliant insight to, to lend to that? Oh my goodness. Well, I'm always going to be in the camp that change is going to happen in communities. Mm. I understand that we need we need a broader, larger government to create order for us. I firmly believe that. But I mean, when we're talking about the people that CPS works with eh, specifically families, , that's the community.
When we're not giving the right training for CPS workers to... I think really it does come back to training, but this, this idea that they wouldn't know how to navigate the substance abuse crisis, I think, which goes back to trauma. So these parents that we're working with now, they were kids that were probably removed back in the 1980s, from their home, or never disclosed their abuse.
And so if we're [00:52:00] even just considering that that's why prevention education matters. That's why it matters that you've got someone that's telling children, "You can say something. This is not normal to be happening in a home. There is a way to, to- talk about what's going on and you won't be in trouble.
But I think on the other side of that, if we're encouraging kids to do that, we cannot put them back in that home. So, it's just, it's like a cycle. So if we're talking about, okay, why is this still a problem? Well, those, those were the kids back in the '80s that are now parents that are living the, in that, in that, sort of generational trauma not knowing how to parent, not having those resources.
And I just think we don't focus a lot on that like that idea to, love your neighbor- Yeah ... and, like- Mm ... help, help your community. So I don't know if that's the right answer, but that's just how I feel. Yeah, it's a [00:53:00] broader, definitely a broader cultural issue. And change, change certainly does happen in communities.
It's a similar insight. See, you and I have both created, founded prevention entities. The one I founded is called Shield Task Force. It's in West Virginia. Okay ... and it was founded when I was a prosecutor just noticing that all the children on my docket, and I had the juvenile docket at the time, had some sort of maltreatment trauma in their background.
And so this effort to go upstream. Tell us a little bit about Prevention Starts with Parents the entity that you've created- Okay ... and what some of the ... Yeah. W- what are some of the principles of, of that? Well, really it was born out of this realization that I didn't really care about prevention when I was, like, in the field a lot, which I regret.
Like I was just so focused on what we mentioned earlier is that secondary prevention was like, and tertiary, was just like respond, respond, respond. [00:54:00] Like, there's nothing we can do about this. Like, I'm so busy just responding to all of these cases and all these people. And so once I sort of got out of the direct services really what triggered it for Prevention Starts with Parents was I was like outside in my backyard with my, my kid playing, and we backed up to a soccer field, like the neighborhood soccer field, and there was these boys playing soccer or football or something like that.
And they were saying the, like the most vulgar, just outright like disgusting stuff that I was like, "No one this age should know these things." And so I'm just thinking like, "Where is your mom?" I'm like, "This is crazy." Like, you, your, if your mom knew or if your dad knew. And basically what any other normal person would do, I put my kid to bed and opened up PowerPoint, and I started typing out all the things like I wish parents knew about [00:55:00] about sexual abuse, about problematic sexual behaviors, what our kids are exposed to now, and just realizing okay, change starts in the home.
Parents have the best opportunity to prevent sexual abuse, whether it's online, or in person. And so it was just kind of born from that realizing, okay, I've had a lot of different professional experience, and I've seen it from different perspectives when it comes to, that happening in the moment and that disclosure and it coming out and the outcry.
But also working with these now, parents that were sexually abused as children that still haven't disclosed, and they're involved in the court system and are just about to start going through therapy, I mean, at the first time at 29 or whatever. So, I, I think Prevention Starts with Parents was really just this, this hope that parents would feel like they can be empowered and be, have the [00:56:00] knowledge to, to prevent this type of crime.
Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. And so what what concretely has your organization done in the prevention realm? What type of trainings do you do? So definitely the focus would be on parents and wanting to make sure that they understand the reality of child sexual abuse. So even sort of dispelling myths, like it's not the creepy person you don't know.
It's either going to be a peer, it's gonna be a family member, it's gonna be someone that you know. Actually, , applicable prevention techniques, how to have a conversation with your kid, teaching them anatomically correct names for body parts opening up conversations to talk about hard things.
And then even if you go into the online field, navigating your kid having a device. So teaching, parents basic things like that. But also, I have a passion [00:57:00] for, which is why I'm thankful I ended up with you, but, teaching professionals what it looks like maybe from their perspective to prevent sexual abuse from continuing or happening with children.
And less of the focus on prevention starts with parents has been with kids. It's really been trying to teach adults to take on that burden rather than children. Awesome. I love the focus on the online pieces as well. It- as we know, kids, kids now don't make this clean delineation between online stuff and in-person stuff.
It's just all the same stuff, and increasingly that is online. Yeah ... and so that's such a critical area, obviously, to equip parents in. I, I also think that's a really good in for prevention with parents. Just, just in my work in prevention sometimes it's more difficult to explain what you did around, who is and isn't, perpetrators of, of child abuse.
But the online risks you, that tends to be [00:58:00] something that parents are pretty willing to hear about, and it can open up the door, to, to other things. So love that as a strategy. In your time I understand you've done some work doing prevention trainings in the context of faith communities.
Yes. Okay. So, with specifically, with churches. I've also worked with some nonprofits that it may not be a church, but their foundation is sort of that service and faith-based sort of service to communities. But something that can encourage others is focusing on not just, the parents or the staff at the church, but these- These support systems, so if we're talking, volunteers with your childcare ministry at church sometimes those are the people that are closest with the kids 'cause maybe they're the Sunday school teacher that meets with that kid every single week and sees them every week.
So, I think [00:59:00] that training, if I remember, I called it, Partners in Prevention or Prevention Partners or something like that. So, these are people that we wanna teach, you can play a specific role in either responding to an outcry of abuse or being able to prevent it because you're, you can be a safe person and, make sure your space is not somewhere that children would be harmed.
So and setting those really clear, helpful boundaries for kids. I don't think adults realize sometimes the power of setting the example of saying, "This is how safe adults should interact with children." Mm-hmm. And so when kids possibly with an adult or something that they're realizing, oh, those boundaries aren't there, so adults those, those specific roles like volunteers , can play a huge part in preventing abuse, absolutely. One topic that you and I are both passionate about and shameless plug, that we both train on is something you've mentioned [01:00:00] youth with problematic sexual behavior. Is that something you intersected with in the CPS realm or was that more so your other roles?
The, and maybe because of that specific role, but the most common one I was seeing was sibling on sibling sexual abuse- Mm ... because absolutely, CPS is gonna get involved with that. And those cases were really difficult. Mm ... what, you start to think like what good can I do, when
a family is basically falling apart and that would be another topic that I had zero training in Mm ... to de- to deal with sibling on sibling sexual abuse. Yeah. What a hor- what a horrible topic to learn on the job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot to be explored there. And o- obviously such a challenging topic.
The ... Just in terms of the sibling-on-sibling sexual abuse, what, what would be some of the interventions? [01:01:00] In terms of if you're a CPS worker? Yes. Okay. Well, first I think understanding do you, does the family have any resources in terms of other family members? Because your focus should be safely having that family together at some point.
So if you ... I- I just encourage them, if you get a PSB case, don't treat it just a- as an investigation. Go ahead and probably plan on it being a case that you refer to keep open for a long time. Because it's going to be difficult to work that case and encourage parents to take a hold of resources like therapy and wanting to keep positive relationships with both the children.
'Cause you see it go both ways. Like, well, the victim he's just lying. His brother would never do that. Or you [01:02:00] see where the, the perpetrator is completely shunned. That kid is, just destined to never get any help, which we would definitely say is not the case. So they're very complex cases.
I'm not gonna be like, "If you just know the, the formula, like, you're gonna be fine." You don't have a verbal judo for, for PSB cases? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I wish I did, honestly. But yeah, , I think just go ahead and, plan as an office to be like, "This case needs special attention from us," and just- You know, not assuming like, oh, everything in the report happened, but trying to encourage this family, everyone needs to seek therapy.
You can come back together as a family, but it's going to take time and healing everybody's perspective. Safeguards. Yeah. Yeah. It's so tricky. It's so tricky. Yeah, I think the, the good news with PSB is it does seem that when there's an appropriate [01:03:00] intersection most of the time we don't see these behaviors from a recidivism perspective now.
Mm-hmm. Asterisk on all things recidivism, of course, that recidivism doesn't mean re-offense. But even compared to general, sexual offense recidivism, PSB is so much lower i- in terms of seeing that, continue on into adulthood. So I think there is a ton of hope there- Right ... when you have those appropriate interventions.
But I think that's really the key asterisk to me, to what extent, what do those interventions look like? Because you can err with an over-response, as you mentioned. You can also err with an under-response by not implementing safeguards, by not ensuring- Mm-hmm ... that there's capacity to, to have a, a familiar environment where, sexual assault would be prevented in the future.
And in some of those instances, the environment's just not there. It, it just, it just can't be there. And the capacity isn't there for a variety of reasons. And so obviously that's tremendously difficult. Well, that's not an issue that we will [01:04:00] solve in a five-minute- No ... segment on a podcast, but- Too bad
there are longer trainings that Alison and I both do on youth with problematic sexual behavior, both the prosecution piece and then the other variables, and a lot of considerations to carefully weigh and navigate there. Mm-hmm. There was a, in the, we had sort of a brief banter segment earlier.
But one of the AI suggested banter questions was, "After everything you've seen, what still gives you hope?" And I think that is a particularly- Yeah, but yeah ... good question for a CPS worker especially. But what, what would that be for you?
I think there's kind of a couple answers, but I mean, I think about really bad cases that I've had. I mean, justice through prosecution gives me hope. And sometimes that takes a really long time to see. I think celebrating when parents do the right thing and they're, they [01:05:00] win, that gives me hope when parents maybe make the hard decision or, they get, decide to get clean or they go to rehab or they maybe leave their partner that's abusing their kids, even if it's financially they're about to be put in a huge difficult situation.
I think that, that gives me hope when, when parents make those big decisions. And then don't want this to sound cliche, but, watching other people do this work. You just have to think, I'm such a small part of this grander scheme of, people that are doing this work, and just being like, there is someone just like us, in the next town over, in the next town over.
Just trying to work with their community. And just being like, we have to do it here, you have to do it there, so that there's, that common goal to work towards. But th- that would probably be [01:06:00] the maybe three things that give me hope. I love justice, though. I love when justice is served, so - Justice is awesome
I w- I won't have any shame about that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love seeing a bad guy or a bad girl go away. They come- So ... they come in all varieties, yes. Yes. Well, I, I think j- what you just said is a reason or rationale I suppose, why I've al- I love conferences, and I love training at conferences becau- because of what you just said.
Because you get to see those individuals, across, depending on the conference you're at, across the state, across the nation, across the globe in some instances- Mm-hmm ... that are dedicated, that share the same passion. And there is something incredibly hopeful and, and invigorating about that that's super encouraging.
Well, let's talk about some of your training content. We're thrilled to announce your arrival at Coursing Justice. The newsletter just went out- Woo-woo ... I think yesterday at the time of recording, and already seeing some, some pings on the website and [01:07:00] elsewhere. So if you- Nice ... wanna see the many things that Alison has graciously agreed to talk about with Coursing Justice, you can check that out.
But there are a few things. You have a longer session on minimal facts interviewing as well called Successful Investigations From the Start: The Art of Minimal Facts Interviews.
What would you recommend just about that topic? What would be some highlights? Well, if you're listening and you don't know what a minimal facts interview is, is it's just what it sounds like. You say you've got an allegation of sexual abuse.
You as, a CPS worker or that first responder, you want to actually get minimal facts regarding the allegation because we want to let a forensic interviewer be the one to handle going into detail, a- approaching all of that from, a developmentally appropriate, age appropriate, trauma-informed perspective in that forensic interview setting.
So, minimal facts [01:08:00] is going to consider, the age of the child. So minimal facts, we would want to know who, especially if you're, a CPS worker, maybe a police officer. We wanna know who did something so that that child isn't with that person. Like maybe as we're waiting for their forensic interview.
And we would like to know what has happened to the child because careful consideration, like do they need acute medical care? Has something happened and, they need to go to the hospital? Or do they have a specific need possibly from what happened that needs to be addressed pretty quickly?
But also just understanding what in terms of asking open-ended questions. So these are gonna be questions like tell me about. So if we're maybe assessing for discipline in the house, tell me about what happens when someone gets in trouble. So that's a [01:09:00] great, sort of non-leading question to ask a kid to get as much information as we can because someone could be another child the child you're talking to, or an adult in the house if they get in trouble.
So, it's minimal facts is focusing more on just what we need immediately and not interfering with what could happen in a forensic interview. Awesome. Yeah, some very, very important considerations if we want our cases to not be messed up very horribly, very early on. Yeah. So if you're not familiar- Yes
with this concept, encourage you to check out that training. And also you can hear a bite-sized version of that training called Minimal Facts Interviewing: A CPS Primer.
We have a bite-sized half-hour training at least once a month called Justice in 30 that is free to all. Well, you have a ton of other trainings but perhaps one more I'll ask you [01:10:00] about just 'cause I love the title, is Guardians, Gaslighters, or Gullible: Adult Narratives Affecting the Child Abuse Investigation.
Can you give us the, the elevator pitch for that training? So it definitely is gonna focus on how narratives or accounts that we get from adults about child abuse or what has happened can really affect the outcome of a case, and how we as MDT members navigate whether it's a parent giving us, an account of why their kid has a mark.
If it's a, a mandated reporter that maybe is really biased, how do we navigate that? And I've even seen situations where maybe it's a police officer's telling another police officer, "Well, this is what I think happened." And how can we stay as, unbiased and neutral as possible as MDT members [01:11:00] to have the best outcome in a case and not get swayed by some of these adults that can be pretty convincing that and wanna manipulate the situation, or maybe aren't trying to manipulate the situation but they do interfere with an investigation All very practical stuff, both for CPS workers and other MDT members.
Thank you so much for all the work that's been put into developing that and grateful to have you on board the Coursing Justice team in 2026 and beyond. Well, thank you, Alison. We know you're a busy person. Thanks for stopping by the podcast. I'm sure this won't be the last time if I can persuade you to return.
But thank you just for all the various ways you've been serving this field and the, the professionals in it. Well, thank you, Robert. I appreciate it. This has been fun.
Thank you for listening to Coursing Justice. Sign up for our newsletter at coursingjustice.com and join us as we continue [01:12:00] charting a way forward for justice in the cases that matter most
