#1: The Detective (with Brandon Poor)
Content note: This episode includes discussion of child sexual abuse, child sexual abuse material, child exploitation, child death and homicide investigations, and suicide. Subscribe on Spotify | View full transcript
What does integrity actually look like in law enforcement — and what does it cost? In this episode, Robert sits down with Detective Brandon Poor for the first conversation in Season One: The Multidisciplinary Team.
Brandon has spent roughly twenty years with a major police department in the Dallas–Fort Worth Metroplex, joining the Crimes Against Children unit in 2014 and founding his department's Internet Crimes Against Children unit in 2016. He's a cell phone and computer forensic examiner, an expert witness, and co-host of the Catfish Cops podcast. He also sang professional opera before becoming a cop — a career path he's fairly sure is unique.
The conversation opens on integrity: why Brandon considers it the non-negotiable ingredient in police work and what it means to follow evidence toward powerful people and away from suspects everyone assumes are guilty. From there, Robert and Brandon get into why child sexual abuse material cases are so often treated as victimless — and why that framing is, in Brandon's words, "a smack in the face to every victim out there." They talk through the overlap between online and hands-on offending, the reasons recidivism figures understate the problem, and what it means for a survivor to know the material never goes away.
They also dig into the MDT itself: what Brandon wants prosecutors, CPS, therapists, and medical examiners to understand about the detective's role and how a two-minute stop at a dumpster proved a child was telling the truth. The episode closes on faith, prevention, and why "risk mitigation is not prevention" — plus Brandon's live reaction to the AI-generated Coursing Justice theme song.
Whether you're on an MDT, considering this work, or trying to understand what the people doing it actually carry, this conversation is a candid look at the why behind twenty years on the job.
About our guest
Brandon Poor is a detective with a major police department in the Dallas–Fort Worth Metroplex, where he has served for approximately twenty years. He joined the Crimes Against Children unit in 2014, investigating sexual and physical abuse of children as well as child death and homicide cases, and in 2016 he initiated the creation of his department's Internet Crimes Against Children unit. Brandon is a cell phone and computer forensic examiner who has conducted hundreds of forensic examinations and testified as an expert witness. He is the co-host of Catfish Cops alongside Tony Godwin. Before entering law enforcement, Brandon earned a Bachelor of Music from TCU and a Master of Music from New York Conservatory.
Key moments
05:30 — Integrity as the core ingredient
12:50 — Following evidence toward the powerful, and the case a DA wouldn't charge
14:50 — Standing on shoulders: mentors, giants, and the people no one knows about
19:50 — Law enforcement as a vocation: "if you can do anything else, you should"
28:40 — Probation for CSAM offenders, and the myth of the victimless crime
40:00 — Why Catfish Cops started: taking the prey away from the predator
46:30 — Compartmentalization, humor, and the line before repression
53:40 — What detectives want other MDT members to know
1:06:00 — There's always a crime scene: the dumpster photo
1:10:30 — Faith, prevention, and why "risk mitigation is not prevention"
Mentioned in this episode
Catfish Cops — Brandon's podcast with Tony Godwin
Dallas Children's Advocacy Center and the Crimes Against Children Conference
GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment)
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Episode transcript
You can download the full transcript here. *** Please note that this transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors. ***
[00:00:00] The way that predators are preying on children today is so different than it was 10 years ago.
There's always a crime scene. Even if there is that delay, there's always a crime scene.
It's such a huge impact on their life, and I think to look at this as a victimless crime is such a smack in the face to every victim out there that, that's hands-on or otherwise.
There are so many people with powerful, powerful whys just keeping folks safe at great cost to themselves.
I certainly believe that if we can't do what we're doing in the open in the light, then we're not doing the right thing.
Welcome to Coursing Justice: The Podcast, a program of Coursing Justice LLC. We are a consortium of current and former law enforcement, prosecutors, and CAC and MDT members serving the field through innovative training, simulations, and practical content for justice and child protection professionals. I'm your host, Robert Peters, former prosecutor, attorney at law, and founder of Coursing Justice.
And today you are listening to the [00:01:00] first episode in season one of Coursing Justice: The Podcast, The Multidisciplinary Team
Now, this project is especially meaningful to me because it brings together some of the people I most respect in this field, and there are quite a few people in that category.
These are individuals who have spent their careers fighting for children and abuse survivors from within very different, but important and critical professions. So each of them brings that different perspective, that different role, and that different set of skills to that work. And each of these roles has a practical insight to offer not just to those of you who are currently on multidisciplinary teams, but to those of you who might be considering this work as part of your own vocation or just the broader public if you wanna understand more about the heroes keeping kids safe in unsung areas and unsung ways.
I hope this might be a good window into that incredible work. So throughout the season, we're gonna look at what these professionals do, what they wish others understood about their roles, both others on the [00:02:00] multidisciplinary team as well as the broader public, and where we sometimes see tension arising related to the responsibilities in the multidisciplinary team.
If you're not on an MDT, yes, there is tension on MDTs. This does happen. That can be a good thing. My hope is that these conversations help MDT professionals understand one another more fully, work together more effectively, and strengthen the response we provide to children and families. And I also hope they give the broader public a clear picture of how difficult but critically important this work is, and how incredible the human beings are who choose to do it.
That is a pretty tall task, so I needed to bring in an outstanding guest for episode one, and fortunately, that has been a success. My guest today is Brandon Poor. Some may be familiar with Brandon Poor from the awesome podcast that we reference a few times, uh, over the next hour and a half or so, Catfish Cops.
So don't immediately go to that podcast. For sure, check it out, but maybe, maybe listen to this episode first. Please come back, although you might, you might get hooked and just [00:03:00] stay there, and if so, I get it. But Brandon received his Bachelor of Music degree from TCU, his Master of Music degree from New York Conservatory.
He sang professional opera before becoming a law enforcement officer. Not the most prolific entry point, I suspect, into law enforcement, but very cool background. And Brandon has been with a major police department in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex for approximately twenty years. He started in the Crimes Against Children unit in twenty fourteen, and he has seen quite a few things.
This includes investigation of crime of sexual and physical abuse against children, as well as child death and homicide cases. In twenty sixteen, Brandon initiated the creation of the Internet Crimes Against Children unit in his department. That is critically important. Uh, anyone adjacent to this field should know there's certainly been an explosion of online exploitation cases leading up to the pandemic and absolutely since then.
And so Infrastructure like that is obviously critical, though they're not sufficient. Brandon is also a cell phone and [00:04:00] computer forensic examiner. He's conducted hundreds of forensic examinations in crimes against kids cases, and he's testified as an expert witness in court as well. So he knows his stuff.
There's much, much more that could be said about the many ways that Brandon knows his stuff and the important areas in which he works. Now, as you listen to today's interview, you might think, "Wow, this would be way more enjoyable if Brandon were doing the interviewing," and you're right because as mentioned, Brandon is the co-host along with Tony Godwin, Tony makes a few name drops today, of Catfish Cops, which is a favorite podcast of mine and many others in this space.
If you're not familiar, definitely become a listener of theirs. Today with Brandon, we're gonna talk about integrity in law enforcement, why someone should consider a vocation in law enforcement, some problematic cases including some cases of offenders getting probation, Brandon's reaction to the new Coursing Justice theme song, and much, much more.
Let's step into our conversation with Brandon Poor. I am privileged to be sitting here, albeit virtually, with Brandon Poor. [00:05:00] Brandon, welcome to Coursing Justice, the podcast. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here I'll be right up front and say, I feel honored to talk to you every time we get to talk, so, and I'm not blowing smoke there.
Well, it's very mutual. We had a lot of fun. Our last intersection was at the Dallas Crimes Against Children Conference. Catfish Cops was in what appeared to be a marathon of, of podcast recordings. You appear to have survived that. But great time with you and Tony, and obviously a, a great show that strongly recommend if you haven't checked out to check it out.
On that show, one of the things that jumps out to me, we talked a little bit about what are some of the most important attributes of a prosecutor. You had posed that question, and my answer was courage in terms of moving forward cases the hard part already being done by the victim in making those disclosures.
But I'd like to start off by turning that question on the law enforcement side of it. You are, you know, a seasoned law enforcement officer, detective. You've also been a school resource [00:06:00] officer. You've been a- almost everything it appears, patrol, evening shift, day shift, all of the above. So just at a broad level, what would you say is a really critical ingredient of a law enforcement officer?
Integrity. Mm-hmm. I think that's, you know, that, that willingness to do the right thing when no one is around has always been I think from the start of my career, something that I really believed in. You know, I had an early on supervisor who I, who I respect very, very deeply, and I, and he just told me up front very, very s- start of things, like, "You can, you can make a lot of dumb mistakes and be okay, but if you lie about it or, you know, cover things up, you're not okay."
Yeah. And so, like, that's ... I think that that does branch out into a lot of different areas of what we do. And so it seems like kind of a maybe a, a curt answer with, with integrity, but I believe that at the heart of things, if we don't have [00:07:00] that, then we don't really have much else in our career. Yes. I remember early on in prosecution we were working to get a local agency set up with body, body cameras.
This was a while ago. But there was a bit of pushback to that and I'm not, you know, taking a firm position one way or the other, but the pushback was concerning in that th- this is a direct quote from one of the detectives who said, "Well, if we have body cameras it'll catch the exculpatory information too."
And framing that as if that was a bad thing. A bad thing. It would also catch exculpatory information. Oh. So. And you know what's sad, I mean, and I, I actually was pushing for body cams, so I ... You said you ... I think you're very nice in saying it. I, you know, I think in SRO and patrol and, you know, some of the investigator stuff that I've done, I feel like it's a very small corner of law enforcement that I've actually been a part of because I know people who have done all of these different specialized units and different ex- extra activities or [00:08:00] roles.
So I feel like I'm very narrow in my focus sometimes in my law enforcement career. But I also feel like I've, I've really focused in on one sort of area that I believe in and I'm passionate about. But one thing that I, I, you know, early on and, and sort of as the SRO, I was pushing for body cams before we had them and was kind of told no at the time because- Mm-hmm
probably financial and things like that. But when we got them, I was one of those people saying that I, I welcome them because- Yes ... everything I'm doing I can do with my supervisor or a random citizen or a prosecutor, a defense attorney standing over my shoulder because I'm, you know, in, in our state we have, you know, certain acts and laws in place that everything gets turned over, everything that I do.
If I, I jokingly say if I, you know, sneeze and wipe my nose with a tissue, that tissue goes to the defense. So that's sort of how I approach it. So I believe in, I think the [00:09:00] body cams have done so much more good for us in, especially in showing the good things that we do. And when there's something caught that's bad, I, I think that's a good thing to happen.
Yes. And I don't mean to say that sounding, like, self-righteous, but I certainly believe that if we can't do what we're doing in the open in the light, then we're not doing the right thing. There's a freedom to integrity. Yeah. There's a freedom to that, yes. I mean, we tell our bad guys all the time, you know, and I have words that I, I call them suspects or we call them predators in my, my line.
But I tell our predators, like, or people that we're interviewing, it's so hard to keep up a lie. Mm. Because you don't know which lie you're, you're in right now, and, and keeping lies straight is so much more difficult than just the truth because the truth is something that you're easy to remember. You, y- it's easy to remember because it happened, so.
I think also, y- you mentioned earlier, you know, integrity sounding sort of simple and curt, but actually there's some very [00:10:00] nuanced implementation of it. And I think of just the integrity it takes to go after powerful individuals in particular. Yeah ... and I think I wo- will, won't, won't name names, but I think of individuals who have gone after, you know, high-profile individuals and have, you know, had their integrity as officers attacked.
"Oh, this is some crusading cop," or, you know, "This is someone with an ax to grind." And there's certainly a risk to that. And I, and I know s- sometimes you ... I've, I've heard peers i- in sort of law enforcement settings saying, "Oh, you know, so-and-so is is intense 'cause he'll go after anyone." And shouldn't that be the baseline though?
Whether it's prosecutor or investigator, shouldn't that be the baseline, and isn't that what integrity looks like, especially when it's the powerful? Yeah, and that, I think that's one of the nuances that I thought of when I said that integrity. Like, it's, a lot of times the integrity is not the popular thing, you know?
Well, most of the time it's not the popular thing. Sure. And it's, it's standing up for doing what's [00:11:00] right even when everyone disagrees with you or, or hates you for it. But I also believe that, like, I don't- And I never say going after someone. I, I legitimately believe if there's evidence for something, I'm following the evidence because at the end of the day, and I, I feel like I'm saying all these things that, you know, sound like they're rehearsed or trying to make me look better as a cop than I am.
But I say this all the time. We- And I say this to my colleagues, I say it to the, the suspects that we talk to, and to the people that I work with, and I say it to the public. I, I believe that we are neutral, fact-finding truth tellers and, and basically diggers for, you know, we're digging for evidence.
And when there's evidence, I follow the evidence. And if it leads me to someone high profile, powerful, and the evidence says that this person did something, then yeah, sorry. That's, you know, that's where it's led me, and that's what I'm presenting. [00:12:00] If it leads me to someone who's, you know, preying on someone who has no clout, no money or anything, if the evidence leads there, it leads me there and, and I'm sorry it, it led me there.
But I tell people, I think we just told someone in an interview last week, like we look just as much at the evidence that says something didn't happen as it did. Mm-hmm. So I think that's the integrity too, is saying like, even when everyone's saying, "No, go, go after this person, they did it," and you find something that says the contrary, then the unpopular opinion is, no, we're not gonna charge someone for something that the evidence doesn't show happened.
And I think that there are so many more law enforcement out there that believe that way than the public think, because I think the public sees the bad apples or the bad, you know, the worst of the worst kind of things out there and- Yes ... but you know, the common thing in law enforcement that's said is no one hates a bad cop worse than a good cop.
Yeah. Because we, you know, we pride and strive for our integrity and [00:13:00] our reputation, right? So I think that's at the core of everything we, we try to do. Absolutely. Yeah, on the prosecution side, there's the ethical canon, you know, that you don't convict the innocent.
That's just as important as convicting- Yeah ... the guilty. And I think some of the aforementioned popular issues is you look at some of the popular portrayals, both of your profession and my former profession in law enforcement and prosecution and it doesn't get at... You know, we, we don't push things forward that we don't believe in, or at least we shouldn't.
And I think most of us don't. Right. And so there's not, you know, you see these ridiculous cases in the courtroom that prosecutors are pushing on, on popular TV and it just doesn't transcend. But picking up on what you just said about no one hates a bad cop more than a good cop, I think there's some similarity there in the prosecutor confess- or profession as well.
I think of a case where it was a law enforcement, you know, officer perpetrator and the elected in that county wouldn't move forward with charges. This was your, your cop who was targeting, you know, women on [00:14:00] probation, women with substance abuse issues. Patrol cop. Statistically, most most law enforcement perpetrated sexual crimes are, are by patrol.
But in any event, he, he, very easy case frankly. Obviously, there, these are challenging but easy case in terms of it obviously happened. Right. It obviously was an abuse of power, et cetera. But I remember the public statement from the elected for why he wasn't moving forward is, and this is a direct quote, "You have to look at is it easy to prove," I'm using air quotes, "easy to prove beyond reasonable doubt."
And that's just a mind-numbing phrase to me. If you're doing anything in, in child abuse, vulnerable victim investigation prosecution, if it's easy, wrong field for you. Just absolutely wrong field for you, and any other profession. Well, I- Please do any other profession. Right. Everything you're proving is beyond a reasonable doubt.
So- Yes ... like, everything that you're doing is that. Yes. I don't know why that would be different with this person versus that person, right? Yeah. And it's never easy. Like, I, I don't know that I've, unless you have just a beautifully locked in, you know, maybe there's some [00:15:00] CSAM cases, child sexual abuse material cases.
Or the jury was there to witness the offense. Right. The entire jury was there. Right. But your standard, y- you, your, your hands-on offense is almost always it's a brawl, I mean, at, at the trial phase. Almost always it just requires that integrity, you know, to move forward regardless. But backing up a, a second I found that most of us that are, are deeply engaged in this work have a lot of giants that we're standing on the shoulders of.
Are you able to share any of those, those giants in your career, any heroes or, or mentors? I can guess one of them, but what are they for you? No, I hate that guy that you're thinking of, Tony. Sorry, Tony. Sorry, Tony. Totally unprovoked. No, yeah. I mean, Tony comes to mind first because of the fact that, I mean, he trained me.
He was my mentor. That's, you know, we started the podcast based on our friendship and our, our sort of brotherhood there. And gosh, I mean, he has a, he has a history in this [00:16:00] field of people knowing, like, who he is because of the work that he does- Mm-hmm ... and the tenacity with which he does it. So he would be an obvious choice.
You know, I think of people like Bill Walsh, Yes ... who I, I had the pleasure of knowing. And I love his family, and his, his daughter is a dear friend. And so I feel like he was, even though he wasn't my direct mentor once, like I was standing on his shoulders so to- Mm ... in that he had done this amazing work to begin with.
You know, the people in this field, I think all of us stand on the shoulders of the big, the big names that have gone before us that s- you know, start the, the advocacy centers, who start the, the national center, and things like that. Those are big names that we all sort of peripherally stand on the shoulders of.
Yeah ... I sort of, in this field, I, I have a lot of really close... That supervisor that I mentioned Joe, was a great mentor. And Rick, I still work with [00:17:00] Rick who was in the child abuse division when I came in, and he sort of helped select me into child crimes and was one of my, my trainers in, early on in the field.
And his, his mentality, I give him great credit, and I don't think I've ever spoken about him on a pod- podcast or interview or anything because most people don't know who he is otherwise. But one thing that he taught when I came in was, you know, there, there had sort of been like a forensic interview warrant file mentality in some cases, and his idea was like, when he was training me, was like, "Man, if you were accused of something, wouldn't you want an investigator to do the most thorough, complete..."
Especially if you're saying, "I did not do this. This didn't happen." Wouldn't you want... And, and not in child abuse, but in any field. If you're accused of something, wouldn't you want an investigator who came in neutral and looked at [00:18:00] everything that they could and did the most thorough investigation possible, giving you every chance to, to show why it's true you didn't do this and things like that?
And so that mentality that he came With, you know, as far as training me I started from that foundation. So in this field ... And then, you know, then there are, I mean, Irish Burch and, and you know, a lot of the, a lot of the people along the way that we worked with, the prosecutors. Brandy is a, a dear friend who's a prosecutor, and all of these other people that I feel like I look at them as peers and colleagues because we work together, but I'm deeply in awe of them at all times- Mm
and the work that they're doing. And I call and ask for advice and things like that. So, yeah, I think everyone I've worked with is sort of that giant in the field that I think. I, I look at them very, you know, very respectfully and thinking that they've done amazing things that no one knows. And [00:19:00] so yeah, maybe, maybe a couple of those.
Yeah. And then Tony. Yeah. Tony's- And Tony. Tony's whatever. Yeah. Well, you mentioned some incredible, incredible human beings, just, just, and, and obviously professionals as well. And yeah, this, I want to echo what you just said about so many of us standing on the, the shoulders. I think probably a lot of people don't realize even some of the lineage that they're standing on- Yeah
most likely. And just picking on one of the names that you said, though this is true of, of others as well, Bill Walsh who had passed away, I believe it was early in, early in 2025. This time last year, yeah. Yeah. But shocking, I mean, just, just shocking. And I wasn't close with Bill but met with, met him several times.
But my career was very much shaped by him through- Yeah ... through the Dallas Crimes Against Children conference. I went there almost every year when I was a prosecutor. And there are cases that I wouldn't have won, you know, without him, you know, taking the initiative to start that conference, and him and obviously many, many others building that into, to what it became.
So we are very much [00:20:00] standing on those shoulders. And yeah, deeply grateful for, for Bill's continuing legacy. Let's talk a little bit about criminal justice and law enforcement just as a, a vocation. If you're someone who's looking at different ways to make a difference in the world, what jumps out i- in terms of what's beneficial about this vocation?
Well, you know, 20 years in, things are, things are very different now than when I started. And, and I think every cop says that. You know, that every, every police officer I've ever met says, "Oh, you know, it's different now. I don't know that I would do things the same way." And, you know, it's ... I say ... I, I wanted to be a police officer when I was a kid.
Mm. And, you know, I l- I went on ride-alongs in high school and things like that. And then I went a completely different path through, through college and f- and went through a whole different career, and then decided, you [00:21:00] know, when I was mid-20s, I came back to this and, and did this because I was like, "Man, I, why, why am I fighting going into this thing that I lo- that I, I love the idea of?"
I didn't know it. I, I caution people because, like, if you can do anything else, you should. You know? Mm. It's sort of that idea. If you, if you aren't passionate about it, you're gonna get into it and hate it- Mm ... because of the things that will happen in your life or that will change you or that you'll see.
But if you're passionate about it, if, if you are passionate about helping and doing ... A- and I think a lot of that comes with empathy. You know, the, if you don't value human life, then this isn't a good job for you. If, if you wanna get in and be a bully, man, that, I just don't think we need more. And I tell, I tell patrol o- I tell our officers when they're going through the academy this.
Like, you don't have to be a jerk. [00:22:00] Yes, sometimes you have to be a jerk in that you have to take enforcement or you have to do things that people are gonna not like you for, but you don't have to do it inhumanely. And so- Mm ... if that, but if that's what you wanna do and that's a passion of yours, then yes, this is a great career to be able to come in and make a difference, to impact people's lives, sometimes in bad ways because you are taking someone to jail sometimes, and that's an impactful thing.
You know, I tell our, I tell our officers when I'm training at the academy, and I'm ta- I'm teaching child abuse stuff, but I'm like, "Hey, you don't have to issue five tickets to someone just because you can." You know, you- ... you could take it as an opportunity to educate someone or to make it an impactful and, and really enlightening experience for them that they may not have had before with police.
And I don't mean to sound like the, you know, the kumbaya cop. I'm not that- ... you know, 'cause I- That's not the name of your podcast, no. No, no, no, [00:23:00] never. Your podcast. Yeah, but man, we, we thought about it, but no. I, you know, like, the, when the time comes that it's time to turn on, you know, the enforcement side of things, it, it's time.
But- When it's not, you know? And, and I, we had a chief that that was the chief before our current one at the time, and man, he w- he was you w- that he- another person who shaped lives and made a lot of impact. But one of his things was, you know, responsibly aggressive policing. You, you don't treat- Mm
the good citizens like they're criminals. And but when you're talking about dealing with a criminal who's hardened and doesn't care you don't, you don't play, you know, community cop at that moment. You, you are serious about business. And so I think that there's a really good line that people can come in with the idea of, you know, "I'm gonna make a difference, I'm gonna help people, and I'm gonna impact lives in a positive way," but [00:24:00] also understanding that, man, be- it changes you.
It, you know- Mm ... and Phil told me that when I came in. You know, "It's gonna change you." And I thought, "Well, yeah, okay," but, you know, everything changes you, so how much... it, it does make you, It changes you. My brother's a police officer in another state and, you know, I, I tell him sometimes, like, you know, "You, it's okay.
You're in that part of career where you don't trust anyone but the guys you work with. Eventually you'll see not everyone is bad, not everyone is against you." And I think that's a good way to come into this field. Yes. Is there a, a broader family lineage there, or just the two of you happened to go into law enforcement?
Just happened. He went in after me. He's, he's only about seven years in and... But no, there was no, there was no lineage otherwise. You know, I, my family still would probably prefer I'm not a... Not my, my immediate family, but my, my larger family did not like the idea, my mom did not like the idea of me being a cop.
She, you know, "You'll get [00:25:00] hurt or something'll happen," and so yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, those are things where I wish that... I mean, that's a cool thing when you do have a family line of, of people who have done something before. And now my, my daughter's like, "I would be a good cop," and, you know, I'm like, "Yes, you would, but let's see what else you're gonna do."
Not to dissuade, not to dissuade anyone from doing it. Like I say, like, there, there are... If that's, if you can't do anything else because you're so passionate about this line of work and this, you know, this, this field, then that's what you should do. But, you know, someone who's just sort of interested because it looks like the fun, you know, running and gunning and, you know, taking people to jail, yeah, that gets old after a really quick time if that's not, if you don't have something more.
Yeah. If you could wave a wand just at the, the field of law enforcement and change any element of it at a high level what would that be? [00:26:00] Oh gosh, that's, hmm, that's a loaded question. It is. There's so much to it. I mean- I would change the perception that police- Mm ... officers are all after, you know, name whatever type that you wanna say or whatever y- you know, whatever community or I don't, you know
Like, I never went out, even on patrol, I never went out on patrol ... I, I went on patrol looking for people who were breaking the law, but I never went out on patrol looking for anyone. Right ... if, just if something was presented to me, then- You're not paid per arrest? That's, that's not how it- No, no. I don't get a toaster after the third one.
You know, I think about a time, I, there was a, like, I, for this, for instance, so there were robberies in the area I work, in the beat I worked. There were some robberies of drugstores happening, like commercial chain drugstores in the area, and they had been happening for a few months. And so I was doing some [00:27:00] paperwork and, you know, this is what I did.
This is what we all do, where I'm doing paperwork in my car, and so where am I gonna park? Well, I'm in the bank parking lot across from the drugstore, the, the, you know, commercial convenience drugstore. And I look up, and I tell this story to one of the guys that I worked with that was there that night, and we laugh about it, 'cause I look up and I see this guy running out of the store carrying something in his arms, like holding something, and he's running along the side of the store to behind.
And I kinda went, "That's not right." And, and so I go over there, and I, and the guy's in his truck now that's parked behind the dumpster behind the, the store, and I'm checking out on this truck. I'm reading off the plate, and my, you know, I'm putting myself out on, like, a routine call. And my colleague jokes, 'cause he was like, "You just said, like, you know, whatever the plate was, Alpha, Boy, Charles, one, two, three, [00:28:00] four."
And you know, it was like your voice just went zero to 100 because the guy started backing up towards me, and then the chase was on. And it turned out he had just, like, s- snatched the, the register and run out from it. And but it's like that was presented to me. I didn't look for that guy. I didn't know that guy from anyone else.
You know, it didn't matter what he looked like, what he was wearing, what he does for a living, what his family does, anything like that. I didn't care because it was, I looked up and I thought, "That's not right." And it just turned out that he happened to have ... And I had a couple of those that, like, they, he just happened to have been tied to a string of the, of those kind of robberies or grab, you know, grabbing the register things.
And it was like those are the things that I think I would like to, to let the public know if I could wave a wand. You know, of course there's administrative and political things that happen within the field. Politics are everywhere. And so, I think that would be something I would [00:29:00] change. Man, if I could change something with a wand right now, it would be- If I have really good evidence on one of my perpetrators who harmed a child that they would never see, you know, the outside of somewhere to harm a kid again, that would be a wand moment for me, just because- Mm-hmm
you know, I don't think the public generally knows that a lot of times, like, our CSAM suspects get probation. Right. So, and that's- Right ... something that, you know, when I tell someone, they're like, "No way. There's no way." And I'm like, "Yeah, you'd be surprised how this 30-some-odd-year-old guy with infant toddler videos, you know- Mm-hmm
hor- horrible, horrible stuff just got deferred community adjudication or something like that, you know? And that's not a knock on the system or the, the prosecutors, it's just that's what's happening. Yeah. I'll, I'll knock on the system and prosecutors. Maybe not your specific one. I'll let you do it. Yeah, in general.
You know, yeah, I think one of the things that the public should understand, [00:30:00] obviously facially that's a problem- Yeah ... that you have that type of content, you know, being, receiving, not, not impunity, but almost impunity. Right. You, you know, just some research from, you know, a gentleman you've had on the Catfish Cops at least once, maybe a few times Dr.
Burke Dr. Michael Burke, Oh, another, another giant ... another giant, for sure. I, I love that guy. He is phenomenal. He is, and an incredible speaker. Yes. Just he's got the, the gravitas and everything. I'm deeply insecure about how good he is. But- But he's so personable too. You know- Yes ... one of the questions I asked him this time, and it's on our episode with him.
I don't ... I'm sorry, I kind of did ... I don't wanna sidetrack you, but- Go for it ... it was, it was a great moment. I said, "You know, we get asked this question all the time. Can you rehabilitate child predators or sex of- you know, sex offenders who have a predilection for children?" And he said, "You know, we have a joke in the forensic psychology world, you know, it's kind of like how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
Well, one, but the light bulb has to really, [00:31:00] really, really wanna change." And so that, it spoke to me about, like, he's so personal, personable, and down to earth, and he's kind of that guy that you're like, you're so funny and nice and cool, but you're also this guy with this remarkable breadth of work- Yep
that has really shaped and formed the field and sort of the, the research in the field. So yeah, I di- I didn't mean to sidetrack you, but yeah, that, if anyone is looking for someone to go, you know, look up and, and follow their, their research, that's one for sure. Absolutely. And his research is practical, which I appreciate.
That can't be said for everyone. Yeah. His research is, is genuinely helpful for the field. And I think of, it might have been the very first Dallas Crimes Ag- Crime, Crimes Against Children conference I went to. Maybe this was '16. But when he d- he had the keynote on the tactical polygraph, his research about the tactical polygraph.
Yeah. But in any event, one of, one of the [00:32:00] takeaways was it, it was a pretty effective tool which we don't need to get into. But another- Yeah ... piece that he's, he's, he's discussed is, you know, it's not a necessarily a perfect circle, those who have child sexual abuse material and those who hands-on commit abuse against children, but it's a, it's a darn big overlap between the two.
There's a big correlation between the two. Yes. Yeah, and I don't, you know, I don't speak as any sort of expert, but man, if I, you know, if I were one of those that stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I quote his, I quote his research in every presentation I do. Because of how practical it is. The correlation between hands-on and online offenders, that there's really not a difference between an online, quote-unquote, offender and a hands-on offender.
That's right. And like I talk about, we talk about, you know, the steps. One of his training things is, and I give him total credit for this, the steps that it takes. It's measuring recidivism is [00:33:00] basically what he's talking about, and how difficult it is in the child abuse field to measure recidivism because you measure recidivism not by offending, but by conviction, and it takes all of these steps.
It's, it's a number of them, and he goes through them. And if you get a conviction the first time with an offender who knew how they got caught and with the dynamics of outcries of sexual abuse by children anyway being sort of rare outcries, you know, in the first place, then to believe that recidivism is really as low as it's reported is, is just a, it's kind of a tragedy that people believe that sex abuser recidivism is lower than it probably...
You know, it's much, much, much higher than it is reported, I think. Yes. Yeah, there was a related article I remember seeing back in 2019. It was your, your neck of the woods. But it was in, in a North Texas area. Right ... and the title of the article is Why Are We So Bad [00:34:00] at Prosecuting Sexual Assault?
And it was noting that less than 1% of sexual assaults lead, lead to a conviction. That's at a national level, not specific to North Texas. If anything, you all are probably ahead of the game just in terms of the, both the resources and the legacy of training, you know, in that environment. But it is- And I think that- It's a huge amount
some of what Bill Walsh and the CAC here have really done, I think the DCAC has done so much amazing work in, in pushing the prevention, education, and awareness, but also in showing, like, hey, we have to work these a certain way- Yes ... so that prosecution is successful when it's warranted. Yes. Yeah, and there's a huge, there's a whole host of hurdles going off of, of what Dr.
Burke said, but it also ties into what you were saying about the disconnect between committing an offense related to child sexual abuse material and then receiving any sort of, of jail time associated with that. So that's a- Yeah ... worthy thing to wave a wand at. And we need to [00:35:00] realize, you know, and, and oftentimes educate the judiciary that these are not victimless crimes.
Yes ... these are incredibly devastating for victims, every bit as much as, as, quote, unquote, "hands-on offenses." And as you said, it's a bit of a myth that there's a delineation there. That's, I put that into every presentation I've done for the community and for professionals, even, like, when I've talked to district attorneys offices, where I talk a lot about y- let's talk about the impact on these victims, who a lot of prosecutors may even fall, I think, into the, whether consciously or not, into that mindset of it's- victimless because we don't have a victim here.
Right. You know? The, I've heard people, like, I've heard attorneys, and I won't say prosecutors 'cause I, it might've been a defense attorney say, like, "It was just dirty pictures," or something like that. And I'm like my head exploded. I, I just thought, how on earth in this century can you be saying that? [00:36:00] But one thing that I've s- really tried to include in every presentation that I do is let's show the impact that it's having, that CSAM by itself, just the videos and pictures, are having on the im- the victim that was a part of that, even if it was self-created.
You know? Right. That's something that we deal with sometimes these days where, where the child self-produced either at the direction of someone or because they were, quote-unquote, in a relationship with someone, and they self-produce and send something out. And then the shame, the regret, the, the trauma and the devastation that it im- that really it enacts on their life for a long period of time, if not, you know, for the rest of it, is so
It's such a huge impact on their life, and I think to look at this as a victimless crime is such a smack in the face to every victim out there that, that's hands-on or otherwise. It is. Yeah, and you see the, the effect is just undeniable. If you ever, if you've ever sat with any of those victims [00:37:00] in a, in a prosecution or investigation, you know, you know the effect is undeniable.
I mean, there, there are numerous, numerous victims that have taken their own lives a- as a result of this being distributed. So it's egregious stuff, and the, the punishment should match the crime certainly. Yeah. People don't realize that the general public doesn't realize that these victims report being stalked and harassed s- 30, 40 years later because the content never goes away, and they're worried about someone trying to find them.
They're worried about people, people recognizing them as a child in the videos or the pictures that, you know, that someone's looking at at home. And that's something that, you know, I sort of try to impress upon people when I speak in the community is this is something that's happening way more than you realize.
And, you know, your neighbor, your barber, your doctor, your lawyer, your dentist, your teacher, your your plumber, all of these different people who are [00:38:00] just random people in your lives sometimes are looking at this stuff at home and, you know, and you would never believe that it's happening next door or across the street.
So to believe that, that, that someone's not gonna recognize them would be, you know, very naive, and I think that that really plays into the psyche of a lot of these victims long term. Yeah, I think that also, that belief also shows a lack of understanding of how prolific this, this offense is, as you just said, said.
Yeah. You know, NCMEC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, receives millions, plural, of cyber tips every year of online exploitation, and that's really at least in my opinion, really a fraction o- of these offenses. Yeah. Because so many of these platforms really aren't reporting at all.
And I'll shout out to Apple in particular. But you know, o- over a certain span of time, you know, there were 265 reports, you know, given, given by Apple of online sexual exploitation. In the same timeframe, Facebook had somewhere in the neighborhood of, it [00:39:00] was double digit million, 20 million, et cetera.
Yeah. So a lot of these companies- Yeah ... are structured in a way where that, that just isn't happening, and so we're really catching a fraction of it. Yeah. And I think maybe one other element for folks to understand is, you know, the, the expectation of a victim that they might be recognized from child sexual abuse material is eminently reasonable because these things are viewed by millions- Yeah
In some cases. In several cases. Yeah, and they're traced on, on these platforms. And a lot of times, and I tell people, we've been in the dark web forums in undercover capacities talking a- where we're seeing offenders talk about these children in real time as though they were adult film stars or something like that, where they were- Right
you know, and they're talking about, you know, "If I can find this kid now," if they're older or whatever, "I will still do X, Y, and Z," and things. You know, and it's like th- it, again, it's, it's valuing human life. You're looking at, they're looking at this, you know, and very d- du- they're just taking the humanity out of it completely.
[00:40:00] Yes. Yeah. Well, much more could be said there. Yeah. There's a host, host of things we can wave our wand at. Yes. Absolutely. I'm interested in how you got into sort of this public engagement piece. And yeah, what advice would you, or encouragement would you have for others in law enforcement to engage in those types of things?
Well, there are people that do it better than, than we do, for sure. We're, we're very quick to admit that we're terrible at social media despite the fact that, you know, in undercover capacities we spend a lot of time on them. We're terrible at... I mean, the part of one of the good things about this, the crimes conference is we're able to get a whole bunch of, of interviews done at that time.
And so we actually have content through the fall because of that sometimes because, you know, and we apologize to listeners for the podcast all the time because, you know, it's, and it sounds like a broken record that we... Like, I'm off work today. I'm going into work [00:41:00] today still because I got called, I'm getting called in.
And so it's like, you know, when you're, when you're working and you've got a family and you're doing all of these other things, and, you know, a lot of our time is spent doing proactive work to try to bring this cause to the forefront of people's minds and attention. And so, you know, the p- the podcasting sort of gets pushed aside or whatever because of busyness in life, and sometimes we're just old and forget and get tired and all that.
But one of the things we sort of joked about this is probably back in 2017, '18, we were talking about like, man, some of the stories we have people would not believe. You know? Right. Like, some of the dumb things that these predators do or say, some of the funny things that happened in the takedowns or,
We make memes a- all the ti- I have a meme that says like, "One does not execute a search warrant without packs of gloves," because of the things we found at this guy's house. Like- Good call ... I mean, we have a case right now and, and it brings to the, the Texas just [00:42:00] passed a law about the possess- it, they made illegal the possession of a child sex doll.
Good. And people tell them this, they go, "That's a thing? There are child sex dolls?" And this guy probably, you know, I'd... He had a lot. I won't give any details there, but- Like, yeah, that's, that's a story that if you just talk about the horrific nature of it, would be devastating. But then we find the humor in it because there are funny things that happen, you know, and, and we laugh about it because if we don't laugh, we'll cry.
And so we, you know, Tony and I were jokingly back and forth for a couple years like, "Man, we should do a podcast and talk about the stupid things that happen or the dumb things that are said to us, or that we say to them, or whatever." And then we started talking about, we'll never arrest our way out of this problem.
There's just too many offenders. There's too much work. There's so few of us. And so how do we stop this? And, and the only thing we [00:43:00] came up with was we have to make the public aware of how prolific it is. We have to take the prey away from the predator by educating kids how to protect themselves online, and how to make their, their online presence so secure that...
Because that's, and that's why we use the term predator. I feel like I'm going from thing to thing, but that's why we use the term predator. Because if you watch, like, a lion, you know, on the Serengeti in the documentary or whatever, and the lion's going after the gazelle. They're going after what?
The weakest, the one that's lagging behind, the sick one, or whatever. If that one suddenly gets a burst of energy and jumps to the front of the pack, the lion doesn't work harder to go after that one necessarily. The lion shifts to the next vulnerable- Right ... and goes after that one. And so we use that term with these child predators very purposefully, because they're going after the weakest and the vulnerable, the most vulnerable.
And so if we can [00:44:00] tell that child how to make themselves not a prey, not a vulnerable victim, then, or make them aware of that, and educate them and their parents and their community about how to safeguard them in that purpose, then we feel like that's the way we can actually make a dent in stopping this thing.
And so All of that is to say we sort of just started with that mindset of we need to educate we need to bring prevention to the forefront, we need to make awareness like, you know, our mantra, and we need to take the prey away from the predator. And then, you know, it was August of 2020, you know, the, the lockdown was going on.
We were chatting and things like that. I got really good at Fortnite on iOS because I was in ... I had an undercover account on Fortnite, and there was nothing else to do. But- Yeah ... Tony, Tony jumped off the ledge without me, sort of. He s- he always says, like, he jumped off the ledge and then grabbed my foot on the way over and pulled me with him.
Because he was like, "Hey, man, [00:45:00] I got the podcast website. We're going. We're recording this week." And August 20th of 2020, we started Catfish Cops. And, you know, it was ... We weren't aware of how much work it really would turn into, but it was also like the whole purpose of it is we're gonna tell these case stories, we're gonna show the stupid things that these guys do and say, but we're also gonna use it to educate people about how this problem is happening and how people can work to safeguard the children in their lives Awesome.
Awesome. Well, I've enjoyed it greatly, so thank you for allowing Tony to yank you off the ledge as well. Thanks ... it is a huge, it's a huge service to the public, and those are things that I just think would not... or not think, I know wouldn't be on folks' radar, you know, without that service you all are doing.
And so it's... And it's been fun as well. I will say, you're able to tackle some... I think that's part of the trick with public engagement on issues like this. You've got to make it just not completely [00:46:00] soul-crushing while not, you know, dressing it up- Yeah ... or making it something it shouldn't be. And so that's a tough line.
I'm not good at that as Tony is sometimes, because I'm sort of like, here are the facts and the statistics and the research around it, and that can be a little bit soul-crushing, you know- Yes ... some say. And, but, but also, I, I'm the first to say, like, I, I, it's probably an irreverent humor we have, but- Mm
I'm the first to say, like, we laugh so much at work and in this line of work, and with each, with other colleagues because, you know, it, it's... And people think, you know, you're in this child abuse, online child exploitation field, you just have to be depressed all the time. And I say, "You know, man, I wouldn't be in it this long if I were to...
You know, I couldn't do this work if God had not uniquely equipped me to put the evil stuff we see kind of compartmentalized," and my brain processes it. When we're dealing with it, it's a horrible, [00:47:00] horrible thing, and I feel such, such weight of protecting these victims. Mm. But then I don't think about it when we're not dealing with it because my brain doesn't function that way, and that's allowed me to do this for 12 years, and allowed Tony to do it for 20 years, and we have colleagues who have done it for 20 years and things like that because we're so passionate about it.
But if we didn't find the humor in things, yeah, it would probably become soul-crushing to us. Yeah. That, you mentioned it earlier, you gotta laugh or you'd cry. Yeah. What are, So compartmentalization, I'm hearing, is one strategy for officer wellness/resilience. Humor, including dark humor, I think I'm hearing as well.
Yeah, cops are the worst though sometimes, right? Us and prosecutors. Yes, yes. Well, what else you know, for those that are considering this work or, or maybe engage in this work in some way, you have any other practical tips that have, have helped you have longevity in this? Find out what's most important in your life and priorit- prioritize that first.
Mm. So [00:48:00] for me, faith, family are first and foremost. And so those, those have always been... I have a uniquely understanding wife in that she, you know, she- She gives me the sort of green light sometimes to go like, "Yeah, you're, you're protecting kids. Go do it." Mm. You know? Even when it's, "Okay, I'm leaving you guys at the family function or whatever to, to go do something," or, you know, I'm responding to, "Okay, hey, we have a child death.
I have to go investigate. You know, we've gotta leave the zoo a little early today, you know, with our family day." We've... That happened once. And so she's sort of uniquely understanding, and my kids are uniquely understanding and very patient with me, so that's something. I'd say a lot of cops have, like, physical fitness and, and exercise things.
I don't look like I'm the epitome of that, but I certainly do... I, I've found that over the last few years I've been doing jujitsu, and so that to me is a- Mm ... [00:49:00] I love that outlet, and I think, you know, it's, to me it's my, like, one of my outlets. You know, I, I have a lot of little things that I do. Tony, I won't speak on be- his behalf necessarily, but I know he does woodwork and things like that on the side and makes, you know, furniture and things like that.
And so we all have little things that, you know, you have to find those because if this job is your entire life, you will burn out very quickly. And so- Yeah ... I, I think compartmentalization is okay, and it's a good- It, it works, but you have to be careful that you're not just putting it away and repressing necessarily.
Mm. So my, my brain works in a unique way in that the compartmentalization is not like, oh, it comes back up later. It's processed with the horribleness at the moment. And I talk with a boss of mine that, that I probably should have mentioned in the people that I've had as mentors. He's a colleague.
But he [00:50:00] was... He promoted and became a supervisor and, and a, a high-ranking supervisor now. But he worked the stuff with me at the first, and he and I kind of have always said, like we have the same approach where, you know, yes, it's terrible stuff when, when you're dealing with it. But when you're not in the moment of dealing with the case, then you don't think about it.
It doesn't come back and, you know, haunt me in any, any way that way. So, we, Tony and I have been big proponents of therapy and wellness sort- Mm ... resources that are out there, and that's, that's changed a lot in the law enforcement field. There's a huge focus on it and prioritization of it now that was never- Good
early on. So, you know, and if you talk to people, like Dr. Burke is actually one that started a, a wellness and resiliency center for law enforcement that allows cops in this field to come free of charge and- Wow ... and get resources there for, for this, this kind of trauma. Awesome. Awesome. [00:51:00] Yeah. It's I've heard it described, you know, in terms of, yeah, that, that fine line between compartmentalization and repression.
You know, sort of like being struck by a bolt of lightning. You know, not, not pretending that you haven't been struck by a bolt of lightning. Yeah. Feeling it, letting it pass through you, but that's the key, not, you know, creating that loop and frying yourself, letting it flow into you but then flow out of you, and- Yeah
be gone. And some, some in this field have- Superpowers of compartmentalization. A colleague of mine who's a CAC director is a forensic interviewer as well. Yeah. And he was describing a forensic interview. Well, he wasn't describing. We were prepping for a trial. And so I was, you know, called him up the day before, "Hey, it's this, this case.
It's going. Looked like it wasn't going to go, now it is going to go." And he's saying, "You know what? What case is this?" And I said, "You know, Mike, it's, it's, it's this case. You don't remember this, this, this particular interview?" He's like, "No, it's totally escaping my mind." Well, I'm like, "Mike, this is the, the interviewee that, you know, in the middle of the interview starts [00:52:00] engaging in sex acts in the interview room, like, right in front of you.
You don't, you don't remember this case?" And he literally could not. And he's like, "No, I don't." Yeah. Like, pu- put it in, watch it 'cause you need to testify to it tomorrow. Yeah. But that was the superpower. That was the superpower of being able to compartmentalize things that- Well, that's I've never heard- That was pretty memorable
that as a superpower, but I, I think it's one that I have because yeah, the people will say, like, "Don't you remember this?" And I'm like, "Man, you couldn't tell me I was even there." Right before we started this today, I was talking to one of my colleagues. He called and we were talking about, I got a court notif- notice today and he was like, "Who is this guy?"
And I said, "I don't know. I couldn't tell you." I said... He goes, "It's your case?" I said, "Yeah, I know the name, but I don't remember anything about it. I don't even remember the guy's face." So you know, that's, I think that's, I, it, it, it has to be a supernatural equipping because otherwise we wouldn't... Sorry, I think the sun's on my face.
That we wouldn't be able to last if not. You know, I, one of the things that I tell people a lot that [00:53:00] Irish Burch said when we talked to her was it wasn't how can you do that? It was you find your why. Why- Mm-hmm ... why are you doing this? And once you find that, it's really easy to do it for even, you know, as long as you possibly can because you know why you're doing this work and the people who you're impacting.
I'll tell you, I, I teared up at her her presentation at the conference this year. Were you, did you see that in the opening ceremony? No. No, I, I got into there late because we had set up going on, so yeah. I, she is a real- She's always good. Irish is always good. Any- anyone who's ever seen her present knows she, you know, is, is always an intense presence, but that, that was some of her best.
It was powerful, powerful stuff. Yeah. She's ... And, and it's legitimately sincere. Like- Yes ... she's not putting on a front. Yes. So she is that kind of person all the time. Yeah. Well, let's shift gears a little bit towards other [00:54:00] MDT members. So obviously that multidisciplinary team process is critical to any, any child abuse intervention.
And obviously the CAC, child advocacy centers, are critical pieces of that, prosecutors are critical pieces of that. But from a law enforcement perspective, and maybe detectives specifically what would you want other MDT members to understand about your role? It's I'm a big believer in the MDT process.
Tony and I, we preach the MDT and the CAC model particularly. And I'm a big believer in the MDT/CAC model in child exploitation investigations. In fact, I angered an entire room of, of human trafficking investigators when I sort of said, like, "If you're not using the forensic interview process for your victims-" Mm
then you're missing out on information and you're further harming the victim." Amen. I don't have an applause button like your show does, but [00:55:00] I need one for that. Continue. It's, it's, it's not that the victims are the same. You can't talk to a trafficking victim in the same way you're talking to a six-year-old sex abuse victim.
You know, you're, it, you, you're not gonna ask the 16-year-old trafficking victim, you know, to identify anatomy the same way, because they can- Right ... they're gonna say things differently. But understanding that the victim, especially a trafficking, a child trafficking victim or a child exploitation victim, even if they're very immersed in that life, they're still children in their minds and their brains.
And, and so- Correct ... I'm a big believer in the MDT format. But, you know, one thing I think that sometimes in the MDT law enforcement and prosecution is sort of leading and spearheading the drive forward, because we're investigating as we're going and, you know, we're talking to MDT m- members, like in our staffings or whatever, and we're the ones still out in the field gathering information and things like that.
And so sometimes it, [00:56:00] it may seem like law enforcement thinks themselves, you know, more important than everyone else. And I think that would be what I would tell other MDT members. And I, I did a, a presentation, first presentation I ever did at the conference was with the director of therapy from DCAC, and we talked about strengthening the communication in the MDT between law enforcement and therapy specifically in that year.
But in that, I believe that law enforcement is driving the investigation, you know, and the information coming in, but we have to communicate. So I think that would be, you know, that, that we need you to assume that we want to communicate with you. We want to hear the things that are coming out of therapy.
We wanna know- Mm ... the medical findings. We wanna know what CPS is doing. We, CPS and law enforcement are doing sort of similarly timed but completely separate investigations, and so we want that [00:57:00] cooperation. Like, I know CPS is moving at a lightning speed because they have to set safety thing, and then they're going to the next thing, and my, my case may take three or four months after they've closed theirs.
But hey, when I find this out four months after you closed your case and I need you to step back in and reopen and help me get this kid out of whatever environment, you know, that's something that we need to do to work together for the child. And not because, you know, we're all ... i, we had a prosecutor when I came into this that was the child abuse chief d- of the division and, and she said all the time, like, "Juries don't care how much, how many cases you have or how busy you are.
When you go to trial on this case, this case should have been, and the jury will expect it was, your only case that you prioritized." So you need to work every case like that's the ca- the, the option. Like, no one cares how busy you were. No one cares- Mm-hmm ... that you were s- that you had s- 50 cases and that's why you didn't do this.
They're gonna say, "Why [00:58:00] didn't you do this?" Mm-hmm. And so one of the mottos that I was taught early on was, we can explain why we don't have something, but I can't explain why I didn't try. Mm. And so that's sort of my MDT approach, which is just we've gotta partner and communicate as much as possible and, and realize that all of our roles are so important and so different, but they're all vital.
Yeah. And interdependent. Interdependence. That- Yeah ... that collaboration is so critical. Very interdependent. Yeah. Do you all this is maybe a protocol question, we don't need to get into the weeds, but I just think the, the timing of CPS investigations and law enforcement investigations, I see a lot of things go wrong when there's not that sort of collaboration and communication.
Can you speak to that? Well, you know, what I know, and I'm not the expert in CPS, but I know that CPS is mandated by law here in Texas as to their timeframes. Yeah. And, you know, they're doing, they're conducting a civil investigation, and their [00:59:00] investigation is about the placement and safety of the child.
Ours is a criminal investigation that's focused on obtaining evidence and prosecuting an offender who has broken the law. And so a lot of times the timing is because, you know, CPS has this set timeframe mandated by law to do what they have to do, and it's so much faster than ours a lot of times because we are, you know, we may just learn of something new a month and a half in and, oh my gosh, that's a rabbit trail that now I've gotta go down.
We have a c- a case now, right, that, that was, you know, a different case a year ago, but new information came to light that completely spun it a different direction, and now we're involved a, almost a year later in a completely new and active investigation. And so, you know, s- if the year ago case had CPS involved, they closed their case and set their disposition already like nine or 10 [01:00:00] months ago.
And now with a brand-new lead with the same victim or something like that, you know, law enforcement is now opening up and ramping up a whole new investigative case. And so- I think that, that, that it's sort of designed with that. It, it, that's how it's working. Whether it's designed properly, that might be above my pay grade.
But it's designed with those things set in stone, and so understanding that CPS is going to need things done very quickly some ways that in, you know, and for me as a law enforcement investigator, I may go, "Gosh, no, I'm not moving at that speed 'cause I'm just trying to get an interview set," or, "I've got 30 witnesses that I still have to do, you know, do interviews of."
And so I may need to give information to CPS because in that MDT format we do share information and work together. I may need to give them things that I, that I am not fully done with yet so that they can close their case. And I hope [01:01:00] that we have a relationship with our CPS investigators, or CPI, they're, they're child protective investigators now here.
But that we have the relationship with them to come back three months from now and say, "Hey, there's new information." The same th- I, I would say we do the same thing with like, this just came into my head, we- with our medical examiners. Mm. You know, we work a child homicide case. You know, the medical examiner does an autopsy within a day or two of the death, and so there, and but then it's three months before findings come out.
Well, during that time I need to be communicating with our medical examiner, who I feel is a part of our MDT- Yes ... giving them investigative updates that I found because it may help shape the way they're doing their forensic pathology report. And I've had really good success sometimes with medical examiners going back and saying, "Hey, look, I found this here."
I have one case particularly that's, that's d- been disposed of about 10 years now and, [01:02:00] but the medical examiner was fantastic in that every time I found some really good, new, crucial piece of evidence she would take that and sort of ingest it into her process and say like, "Yeah, I can't..." You know, she's like, "Now, could I say determinately this is what happened?
No. But could this that you found maybe play into this factor?" And, you know, it sort of shaped her findings and her report, I think, in a way. She did not compromise the way she was going to testify about the case in her findings. It was not going to be like law enforcement told her something and she just went with it.
She was going to make her findings based on her medical expertise, but she did take our, our investigation as part of her overall resources, and she took it into consideration. And I felt like that was such a- An honor to be trusted to bring that to her, that I valued it so much [01:03:00] that I was very cautious and like, "Hey, I'm not giving you anything to, to sway anything.
I'm just telling you what I found so that you can factor it into your final report." Yeah, I think that, that early communication is so critical both on the CPS side and the medical side because I mean, there are obviously things you can do in an au- in an autopsy or during an autopsy that I am, you know, by no means the medical expert, but that may be difficult to do a year down the road or whatnot.
And so that real time- Yeah ... communication can be quite important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and, and, you know, these are already child abuse, not child exploitation as much, but child abuse particularly is already such a delayed investigation. Yes. And, you know, you're running ... I mean, you know better than anyone because prosecutors really have to tell a story put together of pieces that are sort of shambled together over a period of time.
And, you know, so like that prosecutor that I mentioned earlier, sh- that one of her big things was even if it's a [01:04:00] five-year delayed outcry, now what can we get evidence-wise five years delayed? You know, I'm not ... I don't have DNA. I don't have, you know- Yeah ... a lot of the physical evidence. I'm gonna go do every interview possible because- Yeah
every witness that I interview, and this is where an- another person that I should have brought up earlier, Lindsey Dula, Ah, yes, Dula ... Lindsey Dula. Yes. But Lindsey Dula and I have talked a great length about, you know, the number of times we get amazing information from witnesses or from people in the family around the child that never thought a second thought about something at the time because it didn't seem like anything off.
But now when the outcry comes out five years later, we piece that together and we're like, "That's crucial to us, and you never even thought of it." And now, you know, like I've seen light bulbs go off in the interview of the witnesses where they're like, "I never thought of that at the ti- " You know? And they're
It's like, "Yeah, I should have known that was happening," or whatever. And so those are things [01:05:00] that I, you know, that prosecutor said- Go take pictures. Like if, even if the family's moved from the house- Yes ... go take pictures of the house. Because when the jury sees it, they're thinking in their mind, this was her words, her brilliance, not mine, she said, "They're thinking about their home."
Yes. And nothing like this would ever happen in their home. But when they see the pictures that you took of this place, even after the fact, it takes them to a new place and it to, it transports them. And so if I can help you as a prosecutor in the end tell this story, make the child the truth teller that they are, and present the jury with this is really what it looked like, not what you're seeing in your mind, then I feel like we do a better service for the family than if we just go, "Ah, yeah, but it happened five years ago.
They've moved. I don't even have access to that and, you know, sorry. Can't get that," and move on. That's the difference, I think, between a good prosecution and, man, we were lucky to get, you know, deferred or something [01:06:00] like that. Yeah, where yet another giant Victor Vieth, who's sort of- Yeah ... the godfather of child abuse pros- not sort of, I think just is the godfather of prosecution- Yeah
child abuse prosecution I mean- And such, talk about a down to earth guy, too. Yes. Very much so. But he, yeah, he always says there's, there's always a crime scene. Even if, even if there is that delay, there's always a crime scene. You always get pictures of the crime scene. Yeah. And as you layer things over just from a prosecutorial perspective, like your, your ability to be on your feet in closing argument, in closing rebuttals, in cross-examinations is so much greater if you, if you have those visuals in your mind.
And that's what I encourage. You know, certainly if it's heading towards a jury trial, you know, go to the scene if you can. Because you'll just put things together where your, your BS radar is going to be so much better at, "No, like this, this doesn't line up." You know? Yeah. Just, just even basic layout pieces are, can be really critical.
And that's where I have a, I have a picture in one presentation that I'll, I'll share it [01:07:00] with you at some point, but I have a picture that I, that I show in presentations because the circumstances around this case, this kid goes out to take his, his trash out at his apartment at like 10:30 in the morning on a Tuesday or whatever.
And the story that's given is he's grabbed from behind, drug to the dumpster, and this guy, he's fighting this guy to try and get away. And we- it's m- you know, it comes out as a potential kidnapping and, or an attempted kidnapping. And the kid fights and gets away and runs inside and tells someone. And when we take him to forensic interview, and I think Dula did the interview for...
And yeah, no, I know she did because we've talked about it years later, about- That's a, that's a benefit right off the bat. Oh, I- Having a rock star in the forensic interview room ... 100%. You know, people like Lindsey and Irish Burch and- Yes ... the Carrie Pascals and the Jesse Gonzalez, all of Bernadette Peters Bernadette Peters, Bernadette Martinez.
Different person. Different person. Who's [01:08:00] that at that, No, the, the, all of these amazing forensic interviewers that I work, and, you know, like Dula I, I still up until when she l- started her new venture, I was ... I called on her sometimes to do an interview when I knew it was a great, important interview because of the skill that was there.
But, but in this case, Dula and I kind of were like, man, this seems ... You know, we know the statistics around children lying are v- that's very low. This, the research about the fact that, that kids generally don't lie in a forensic interview. And so we sort of like, man, it was hard to believe. You know, the story was that this kid saw this guy through the reflection in the trash dumpster.
He didn't see the ki- the guy directly. He was describing this guy based on the reflection in the dumpster, and I'm like, "There's no way, Dula." And so, you know, w- what's my job? As you said, everything's a, everyth- there's always a crime scene. My [01:09:00] job is not to say, this didn't happen, I'm not doing anything, but to go out and s- try and say that it did or didn't happen by neutrally fact-finding.
That's what I, you know, I preach all the time. And so I went out the next day at around the same time, and I have this picture in a trash dumpster where you can see the reflection of me taking the picture. Wow. And you see my eye and my badge and my shirt. You s- I had a little, I had a lot of hair then that I don't now, so my, my shiny chrome dome is not reflecting in the dumpster as much.
But you can see me in the dumpster. And when I went out later to show colleagues later, a couple weeks later, that dumpster was gone. Hm. Had I not gone- Mm-hmm ... right when I did to show that this happened or didn't happen, I wouldn't have seen this reflection, and I would've thought, this kid's a liar. But that- And if, and if it would've gone forward, a defense attorney would've done that, and there would've been very limited ways to disprove it.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and it just, it took two minutes of my time to go, oh my gosh, I proved that this kid is [01:10:00] telling the truth, and I took a picture of the crime scene. And no jury in their mind would've believed that this kid could've described someone from the reflection in a dumpster, especially if you've seen a dumpster anywhere.
And, you know, if the defense had done their job, if it did go to trial, you know, and gone out and taken a picture of the dumpster that was there later, they would've proven you can't see a reflection in a dumpster that was there later. So- Yeah ... it was just a good reminder, and I try and show it to everyone that I teach child abuse, you know, investigative classes too, to show like, hey, look, this took no time, no effort, and I was able to prove that this kid's telling the truth with, with just doing my job.
Amazing. Oh, I'd love to thieve that photo sometime, absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. That's a great example. Well, a couple of things I definitely want to make sure we have time to mention as we careen towards a close. You have a decent amount of theological chops which is a fun combination with your day job.
And there are [01:11:00] a few... We talked about this when you all were, were gracious enough to have me on the Catfish Cops podcast. But some of the pieces that I think resonated in that conversation one was the quote, "Risk mitigation is not prevention." And then before we were talking, just before we hit record today, you had the memorable line, quote, "The intersection of faith and business is where churches go wrong."
Talk to me about that. What, what is meant by that? Well, risk mitigation is not prevention I think is yours. I think I stole that from you now, because you said that- ... in our interview. I'll tell you, anyone listening to this should go listen to, to Robert's episode on our podcast because it, I, to me, I've, it's one of my favorite episodes we've ever done because I love talking about faith, I love talking about, you know, Jesus, and I love talking about protecting kids in that space.
You know, the, the, the abuse that's occurred under the banner of Christ- Mm ... is [01:12:00] to me one of the most egregious things that could ever have happened in the history of mankind. Amen. And so the, the passion that I have about protecting kids is even greater in that environment because of the fact that that should be the one place where everyone is safest.
And, and the fact that someone would use... You know, I have, I have a case where I arrested a pastor that I chatted with for a month or two, and he had real victims, he had CSAM, things like that, and I, I call it now the wolf in the the wolf in the shepherd's cloak- Mm. Because, you know, he absolutely was a wolf parading around as the shepherd.
Mm. And so to, to enact that kind of abuse on someone in a position where they should be able to... You know, anyway. I've said I think that, you know, that, that is to me one of my greatest passions now is making [01:13:00] sure that if something is happening in that environment we are responding in the best, most perfect way possible with the most Christ-like love possible, and that we can, We can just, I mean, make it a place where there was healing.
The healing- Mm ... they should, shouldn't have had to, to even have to worry about finding because that shouldn't have ever happened there. The r- the intersection of faith and business, you know, I've said this a lot to people in the church environment that I've, that I've worked with about Churches are, the sad state of affairs is churches are businesses to some extent.
Mm. Even as, even if they do it really well and they don't wanna be a business, there's a business aspect, right? Right. I, I just don't think that you can get away from that. And so how a church does that intersection of faith and business can make or break the way that the, the [01:14:00] people in the, the body see the good and bad that are gonna go forward.
I don't know if that, that makes sense, but I feel like that that's- It does ... that is, to me, that when it goes really well, you just feel like this is church. Yes. When it goes really badly or really not well, then that's when you start to see like, oh, no, this is this is where people say they were hurt by a church and they never re- they never come back.
And, you know, and I'm like, that, on the one hand, I wanna tell that person, like, "You should have never trusted the church. That's, that's not the Chri- the body of Christ." But you should also be able to trust that the body of Christ is doing church right- Mm ... or trying to do church well with all of the baggage that comes with all of that in my
You know, I am not naive in knowing that there are a whole bunch of things that I just said that people are going to hear with their personalized, informed background [01:15:00] with faith and church and, and Christianity. And so I know that there's a lot of baggage that people en- encounter that, that they're gonna hear that la- under the lens of.
Sure. Yeah, I think a, a lot of this another podcast episode will be released around the same time as this, and it's with one of my favorite colleagues, Hannah Fordice. Mm. Longtime Catfish Cops listener, by the way. Oh. But a victim advocate out of Minnesota. We talked a lot about just living into your values and within victim advocacy.
But I think of this in a, in a church context. You know, what does it mean to live into your values as a Christian as a follower of Jesus Christ? What does that mean when it comes to things like risk mitigation, when it comes to things like prevention, and when, when it comes to broader priorities? You know, and your, your values or, or what you, what your values truly are anyway- Yeah
aren't demonstrated by what you say from the pulpit necessarily. Right. And they aren't necessarily demonstrated by a social media post or a press release. It's, you know, what do [01:16:00] you do when the chips are down, when it matters, when it hurts? And so- And it doesn't- ... when you have, when you have an accusation against a senior leader You know, how you act in that moment.
Is, is there integrity or not so much? Yeah. What, what are, what are your initial impulses? Is it, you know, protect the flock, act with integrity, or is it how we manage the fallout, how do we minimize the fallout, the PR lens, the liability lens? And I'm not... Obviously, you have to think about communications.
You have to think about, you know, how, how you're gonna discuss these really difficult issues, and do that in a thoughtful way. I'm not saying don't put thought into that. But, you know, in t- in the order of priority, you know, are your values reflecting what Christ said, and, and Christ pri- Christ's priorities for the vulnerable, you know, or is it this, this emphasis on liability?
You know, there are a ton of programs out there that assist churches in policy development and training and prevention. I work for one of those at, at Grace, Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment. But I think one of the dangers that churches sometimes have in, in any sort of engagement [01:17:00] is when you enter into some sort of program and you think, "We're good.
We're all set." Yeah. And, "We're good. We're... We have checked a box. We've had a training." Yeah. "We've, you know, got a certificate," whatever the case may be. Yeah. And, "We're, we're good." Yeah. From a law enforcement perspective, and you're also a man of faith, why, why is that incorrect? We don't do it with anything else.
It's amazing to me. We don't do that with anything else. You don't go, "Hey, my car got an oil change in 2020, I'm fine. I'll just drive it until 2040 and it'll be okay." Nothing else is done that way, you know? Like, we don't go, "Well, I went to the gym last year, I'll be fine until I'm 80." That's not how it works.
It's an ongoing... It's evaluation, it's processing, it's analyzing, it's seeing if... You know, one thing that worked two years ago with an evolving body, you know, and, and I'm very quick to say, like, don't look to the [01:18:00] Christians to, to understand Christ. Mm. You know? Christ- Brother, I need, I need to add the applause button.
Next time you're on I'll have an applause button. No, I... It's, I'm probably stealing it from someone. I get... I- I don't say anything original, I don't think. But I don't... You know, like, look to Christ because if you're looking to the people in the body of Christ you are going to be disappointed every time, right?
Mm-hmm. And so I know the fallibility of us. Even the most godly, you know, people in the church, they're going to disappoint, and they, they might do some horrible things. Y- you know, and so- The things that work today should be evaluated and processed and analyzed two years from now to make sure that they're still working.
You know, how many times do we get new people? And I do this, you know, we do trainings for churches or whatever, or schools. Let's, you know, community groups and organizations are very similar in- Yes ... you know, [01:19:00] a lot of times it's like, well, we brought in someone to train in 2016 on child abuse response. And I'm like, none of the staff are still here that were here then.
You know? And so, I think evaluating those things the same way you would your health. You know, I didn't go to the doctor when I was 20 and said like, "I'll be fine. I don't need to go ever again." It's an ongoing checkup. It's something that, you know, we learn new ways, we learn thi- He, the predators evolve.
The way that predators are Preying on children today is so different than it was 10 years ago. You know, I think about the financial sextortion that's happening today that was not around before 2020. It, it was sexually motivated- Right ... sextortion was, but it's not the same. The platforms.
Right. You know? Like, none of the platforms that we have today were around before 2013 or so. And so to expect that what you learned five years ago is still applicable and, [01:20:00] and correct today is so misguided at- Mm-hmm ... and that's at best. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, when you're dealing with, you know, the church is a people business, that's what you're dealing with, you know, then you have to be...
I think you have to be constantly learning and constantly willing to reevaluate. And, and I stole what you said about risk mitigation is not prevention. You may have risk mitigation as part of your process. I'm not gonna say that you can't have that. But prevention is not the same, and if you're not doing prevention, then you're gonna need risk mitigation, I think.
Yes. Well said. And one is much, much, much preferable to the other for a variety of reasons. Yeah. I would much rather a child never have to go through this than have to work on the trauma o- on the back end you know, after they've been through something horrible. Definitely. You know, if, if we could prevent a kid from having to deal with something to begin with, that's so much more pro...
It... I would much rather [01:21:00] get the checkup and, and address the, you know, the underlying health concerns than have to go, "Well, I had the heart attack. Now let's figure out how to, like, move forward, you know, from here," kind of thing. Yes. Yeah, I think much more could be said. You know, I think anyone out there, whether you're in a Christian faith community or any other faith community, you know, I think the question is when it comes to child safety, is this...
Are we viewing this or acting like this is some additional add-on thing we gotta do for legal HR purposes? Yes. Or is this at the core of our faith? Yeah. Is it at the core... Is this at the core of what Christ called us to be? Is this prioritizing what Christ called us to prioritize? And it's the same...
The churches are the same about physical security too. Sometimes they don't want to address it because it's uncomfortable to think- Mm-hmm ... that it could happen. And you have to know that, like, hey, the world you're living in means that you accept and expect that you have to address this- thoughtfully [01:22:00] before something happens so that it doesn't happen.
And I think this- Yes ... you know, it's easier to put this sort of secondary because, well, this is a crime of secrecy. It's not something that's on the forefront of everyone's mind. They're not seeing it physically in everyday stuff. And so I think that, you know, that it has to be looked at the same way you would look at building prevention, you know, at maintenance and, and prevention there.
The same way you're gonna look at, you know, making sure that your ministries are moving forward with the way that society is moving today, and not doing, you know, the same thing that happened in 1958. Yes. As fun as 1958 was. Oh. I hear. I hear. Last, last brief topic. I know you're a busy man, and you're, you're being recalled on a day off for, for important things.
We talked a bit about artificial intelligence about four months ago. I won't get into all the horrible things that have happened in AI between now and then. But I did have a question, given your background in music. [01:23:00] Are you familiar with any of the AI music apps, and do you have an opinion on, on their existence?
No, I... W- give me an example. Maybe I'm m- missing- Suno. Have you heard of Suno? No. No, no, no. I... You know, and my musical background was, I, I mean, I studied opera in college and grad school, and, and sang opera professionally before I became a cop. My cousin calls me Copra. Amazing. My cousin, the attorney, calls me Copra.
People ask me about music a lot, and I think they're disappointed to find out that I'm really kind of boring when it comes to music, because I don't know a lot of the popular music. I know a lot about opera.
I can tell you a lot about, you know, about opera and musical theater, and and the very specific genres that I listen to, but I'm not familiar with the AI stuff this is a premiere, all right? I'm gonna show it very, very briefly. So this is the Suno app.
S- And this, they it does a variety of interesting things, but one of the things it does, and you may consider this an abomination, I [01:24:00] imagine many musicians probably do. But it's text to music. Oh, okay ... so I'm gonna show you the current front runner for the Coursing Justice instrumental theme. I'll just play about 30 seconds.
Okay. I'd like to hear your reaction to it. Yeah.
All right, so that's about fir- the first 30 seconds or so from the current front-runner, Okay ... for the theme, and maybe I'll have selected one by the time this airs. You can't quite see the full prompt. There was a prompt that's about a paragraph in length. You probably can't make it out. Cinematic orchestral [01:25:00] intro, immediately rich and fully developed from first beat, da, da, da, da, da. Your initial thoughts on AI-generated music. I wish I were talented enough to have written it, first of all.
I, Man, I, I think it's amazing. I, you know, I'm not- I'm never a first adopter of anything, I feel like. I feel like I'm always, like, way late to the party mainly because I'm skeptical and I think that I'm nosy and skeptical. Those are the only skills I've ever had, and I think that helps me as an investigator.
But skeptical me says, like, you know, I hear people talk about the good of AI and the bad of AI, and I wanna be kind of cautiously, if I have to be, I... maybe not center, but a little on the, like, bad of AI because I don't want to let it do something that's gonna be harmful, but I certainly see the good of AI.
And I've, I've been a very late adopter of some of the AI stuff and using it to create, like, images for presentations and things like [01:26:00] that. I, I think that's a really amazing theme song ... I like it. I think it's, it's intriguing and it's... I mean, there's a, there's a, a darkness to it that, that's sort of like okay it makes you feel like, "Okay, this is serious.
I'm gonna take this seriously," but it's not, like, foreboding. It's, you know, so there's, there are a lot of things that I, I think it's remarkable that it's written by a prompt. That's amazing to me. Brave new world we're in. Yes. But, you know, I can't, you know, like, you know, the 20th century of music changed every rule that had been adhered to for the, you know, thousands of years of music history before that.
So you can do pretty much anything today, and you're not violating any musical theory rules, so you know. Yes. Well- Well, I'll I may, I might send you a few of the other draft tracks and get your take, but it's, it's an interesting time to be alive certainly. And some of the- Yeah. Well, now we've gotta update our Catfish Cops theme is what I'm thinking.
That's right. Like- Why... Or, or we could, you know, we could do a collaboration, [01:27:00] you know, launch a- Yeah ... launch a joint album, you know? That's a possibility. Cour- Coursing Catfish, something like that. Yes. Title pending. Yeah. Absolutely should. Yeah, I love that the attorney in you... Patent pending, trademarked.
Patent pending. I love it. Well, Brandon, you've been generous with your time. Thank you so much. Good luck with whatever critical important things you're doing today. Greatly appreciated and, yeah, thanks for just showing behind the, the scenes just the heart that, that's involved in law enforcement.
And I would say I don't think that's a rare thing. I do think so many cops, even if i- it's not necessarily on their sleeves, so many of your colleagues just deeply, deeply care about this work. And so- Yeah ... I echo what you said earlier, if I could wave a wand as well, I, I wish folks could see, you know, some of what you were kind enough to show today in terms of that why.
And there are so many people with powerful, powerful whys just keeping folks safe at great cost to themselves. Thank you very much for being one of them and for joining us today. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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